I made a post similar to this a couple of months back, but after the behaviour of some of the members on this site tonight, my point couldn't be proven any more so, and I think it should be made clear to everyone:
"Jeff pwns"- a light-hearted, humourous game that's well made and addictive, rated 0 stars twice. One rating is ALMOST understandable, the member taking the game completely the wrong way and getting upset. The other rating doesn't even have a reasoning.
"A falafel adventure"- a great little game, only recently discovered by a few of the members, rated 0 simply because it was too high in the download charts?
It's sad that this issue has to be lifted again, but there clearly is abuse regarding it.
It's one thing if a person dislikes a game and therefore down-rate it, but when people who should know better down-rate just to cause a ruckus or just because they as one sole individual takes it upon themselves to decide where in the download chart a game should be, it's something wrong with it.
This system has been way to abused under a quite short time-span and also been the reason for a lot of flaming in the forums and comments sections. There should be some change.
A while back almost everyone in the forums agreed on the idea of a only thumbs-up system being implented again. Why can't we have it like that then?
And please don't use the argument that "it was like that, but people complained back then" or "old games are not gonna get any thumbs-up", cause maybe people did complain about it back then, but this system is getting A LOT of negative attention too. Couldn't it be that one is a lesser evil of two? Atleast the thumbs-up system can't be abused in any way, and that is the main issue that is upsetting people, not if a game isn't getting the attention it deserves or not.
We've had way too many threads like this one already, I say we should do something about it instead of ignoring it.
Originally Posted by Phizzy But then everyone's profiles would become huge lists of games they like a little bit, instead of a selection of games that are actually the member's favourites.
Originally Posted by Phizzy My rating wasn't to attack or annoy anyone. I was fixing a broken rating. I'm just a misunderstood saint!
Also, I like the way you grasped for a second example just to make it look like this thread isn't purely an attack on me.
Edited by the Author.
It isn't an attack on you, we have better things to spend our time on. It should be noted that me and Adam talked about lifting the topic, and I would have done it if Adam hadn't done it first.
Ps. The admins have already been discussing how to improve the rating system, but it really is not that big of a deal most of the times when most people vote normally, it should even out even with 1 or 2 bad votes.
Anyhow Chill folks no need to keep making topics about this, we know, lol, now let me return to my island, ohhh there is more wood over there, GO Little Guy go!
Edited by an Administrator.
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Originally Posted by Rikus
Ps. The admins have already been discussing how to improve the rating system, but it really is not that big of a deal most of the times when most people vote normally, it should even out even with 1 or 2 bad vote.
Edited by an Administrator.
It some cases, like recently, one 0 (which also didn't reflect the rate้'s opinion on the game at all) threw a game down 96 places...
It's not that we want to make this an unhappy place, but an admin or two could atleast publically state that "Rating a game 0 just for fun or with the sole intention of lowering the score even though the 0 doesn't reflect your opinion at all is unfair and quite rude.", if any admins agree with that at all.
I'm not going to get the arsehole over this, however i think it is grossly unfair when people do this, especially when people do it despite thinking the game is good. There is a mature way to express your feelings, in fact there are a few;
o Write a review - the best way.
o Award the game what you really think it deserves and clearly explain why. If others agree, they can ask the admins to change their own ratings to match.
o Re-make that game better, then show people why it's better.
Phizzy, who are you to say the ratings are "broken"? This is people's opinion. You are entitled to yours by adding a rating but instead you chose to flame everyone else over their own ratings. Why are you pretending that you don't want to annoy people on here? Surely you have the intelligence to see that your actions will have annoyed many people? And if you didn't, why have you not apologised for annoying people? Surely as a "saint" that is something you'd want to correct?
1. Adam (or EE) sees a 0 star-rating.
2. Above person makes another thread to complain.
3. People gets annoyed, and make 0 star rating to annoy him back.
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
the admins do not aprove the practise of down-voting, however if some folks decide to do this at the moment there is not much we can do to reverse that until we update this feature. That being said 1 or 2 down-votes will not make that much of a difference but i do agree why do it?
Cecil: I just think people are acting way to seriously on certain things recently, we are all here to make games, talk about them and "help" eachother, not to fight over eachother. Admins know whats going on. If we are not talking about it in public does not mean things are not being done.
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I have an idea on how to fix this without having to start all over with a new rating system. Make the star-ratings accumulate instead of average out. In other words, have each download page add up the stars from each rating. That way you wouldn't have to start over with a new system, and at the same time zero-star ratings would vanish. It might not be a perfect system, but it would take power away from people like Phizzy who are just out to cause trouble.
You're right that five people could all vote 5 stars, and it would dominate games that were downloaded by 200 people that gave it 3-5 star ratings. But rating a game 0-stars isn't a good fix, because your rating manipulation is the more obvious and hurtful one. Even if the games rating was unfairly high, it's not the authors fault.
But the problem you mentioned would be fixed by an accumulative system that would add up degrees of recommendation instead of averaging them. If they were accumulative, then the game downloaded 200 times with lots of 3's and 4's would easily outrank the one rated only five times with five stars each.
Originally Posted by Phizzy But then everyone's profiles would become huge lists of games they like a little bit, instead of a selection of games that are actually the member's favourites.
It's limited to 5.
Originally Posted by Phizzy I see nothing wrong with a system where there's just a button to recommend a game, with no 'HOW DARE YOU RECOMMEND THIS TO ME?!' button. But they basically only just implemented this sytem, why should the site change constantly? It seems some of you just want to force the site to change a lot just so you don't get bored.
The fundamental problem with the Recommendation button (and the system suggested by Shroomlock) is that older games accumulate more rating simply because of the time they've been sitting on the site, and the new games never catch up.
Originally Posted by Rikus Ps. The admins have already been discussing how to improve the rating system, but it really is not that big of a deal most of the times when most people vote normally, it should even out even with 1 or 2 bad votes.
It kind of is a big deal when it's your game that's being rated down. Any chance they're going to be removed?
The debate about the rating system shouldn't be about what any game deserves, it should be about making sure that one person doesn't have the power to determine that all by themselves. Phizzy, whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter, you shouldn't have the power to reorganize the top-ten downloads list all by yourself. That's not your fault, you were given the power to do that. But it's something that needs to be fixed. No single person should have the ability to reorganize the top ten downloads list just because they disagree with it.
3. People gets annoyed, and make 0 star rating to annoy him back.
Why?
Second that.
The difference between posting a thread about down-rating and actually down-rating is that neither me, nor Adam, nor anyone else would have to start a thread about it if it wasn't for people like yourself being abusive towards others to start with.
Now that that's cleared up.
Rikus:
If the admins are actually doing something about the rating system then that's very welcome! Though maybe it would've been even better if people would've known that already...
I agree totally with what Shroomlock said. If there's anything we can all agree on here it's that the rating system is borked and needs fixed by a lolcat with a screwdriver.
It would be nice if the ratings for falafel were rolled back to the 8th November to remove the counter-active 5/5 ratings also. Anyway, it's just a game on a website at the end of the day.
Originally Posted by Phredreeke Just discard the lowest and highest 2 or 3 votes and calculate the average of the rest. That would make the ratings relatively tamperproof.
Wait, didn't you just kick the shit out of my game because you wanted to jump on the Phizzy bandwagon? I have some respect for Phizzy but not for actions like that. Sorry.
Originally Posted by Eternal Man [EE] The difference between posting a thread about down-rating and actually down-rating is that neither me, nor Adam, nor anyone else would have to start a thread about it if it wasn't for people like yourself being abusive towards others to start with.
Abusive towards others? I didn't write "I'm rating this game with a big fat zero, just like you are" did I?
Originally Posted by Nim
Originally Posted by Phredreeke Just discard the lowest and highest 2 or 3 votes and calculate the average of the rest. That would make the ratings relatively tamperproof.
Wait, didn't you just kick the shit out of my game because you wanted to jump on the Phizzy bandwagon? I have some respect for Phizzy but not for actions like that. Sorry.
I'm sorry that you got caught in the crossfire.
Edited by the Author.
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
There's a trio that form when Phizzy is around, Phizzy being the ring leader and AndyUK and Phredreeke following close behind like little lost sheep. You'll find that anywhere Phizzy posts they will too, and if someone has a disagreement with Phizzy, they will be there defending him at least within an hour of posting. It's honestly quite sad to see, perhaps if they were somehow separated this would stop
Okay can we try and stay on topic now please
We're discussing and looking into ways to prevent rating abuse so that all games have a fair rating. If you have any suggestions on how that can be done then please post them here - anything else can be discussed in other threads (as long as it is civilized) or by sending a message to a DC admin.
If this thread continues to go off topic then it will be locked.
Originally Posted by Flava If you have any suggestions on how that can be done then please post them here
As I said:
Originally Posted by Phredreeke Just discard the lowest and highest 2 or 3 votes and calculate the average of the rest. That would make the ratings relatively tamperproof.
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
There is some point to that suggestion - if 10 people vote 5/5 and 3 vote 0/5, then taking the 2 highest and 2 lowest scores off will still average 4.44/5.
However, i still believe the best way is to not down-vote games because they have a high score and you disagree with it. Unfortunately, that requires every voter to vote in a mature manner.
Originally Posted by Mark Radon There is some point to that suggestion - if 10 people vote 5/5 and 3 vote 0/5, then taking the 2 highest and 2 lowest scores off will still average 4.44/5.
However, i still believe the best way is to not down-vote games because they have a high score and you disagree with it. Unfortunately, that requires every voter to vote in a mature manner.
Well, with the system I suggested, down-voting won't give the same impact, so people will be less inclined to do it as well
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
Possibly, yes you could be right. However, if the down-votes were not included in the average calculation then you may find more down-votes will appear to get themselves in the calculation. 2 down-votes will become 10, then there is no end to the madness, especially when you consider the lengths some people will go to create phantom-accounts so that they can have 2 or more votes.
Let's not forget that the only person you're actually offending here is the person who posted the game, the reaction from everyone else is purely down to the injustice you commit by down-voting! Why go out and peeve someone off because you dislike -Adam-/-Codemonkey-/AndyUK/Mark Radon etc.?
Seriously, just rate the game in your honest opinion and leave some constructive comments with details of why you think it deserves your score - for all you know most people may feel it does deserve 5 stars, just tell them why you think different! If you still think it deserves lower, review it in the reviews section - your review will be absolute and no-one else can argue or change your score!
And if this still doesn't satisfy you, then maybe you are voting for the wrong reasons and maybe you need to grow up a little.
Not long ago, Friendly Strike 3 was released. Everyone (except for a few people) voted it 5/5 in the downloads section. I gave it a 4/5 and i wrote why i didn't give it 5 - i had a problem with the controls which made the game less-fun for me. Then reviews were written by Zoglu and Pixelthief, both giving the game 10/10. I didn't think the game was perfect, though i respected their opinion since it was their opinion!
So did i down-vote the game to balance things out? No, why would i want to annoy loads of people and offend the creator? So the game wasn't perfect for me because of the controls - others seemed to not care and were able to adapt to it better than me. Maybe it was me that was the problem, since everyone found it so playable, not the game. I am not arrogant enough to think that my opinion is the only way!
What i actually did to get my point across was to write a review. I spent 15 minutes or so carefully giving my balanced opinion of the game and i awarded it 8/10, not a perfect 10. I expected a backlash from the lovers of the game. I waited a bit longer for the backlash.
I still waited weeks later.
The backlash never came. Why? Because my opinion was balanced and i didn't down-vote the game in the downloads section. I made my point, i gave it a big loud 8/10 and i still conveyed my message without ruining the scores of everyone else - i deliberatly disagreed with the 5 star voters but i did it in a way that wouldn't offend them. And to prove this, i still have had no negative comments about my review after all this time.
The moral of the story is this; don't change your opinions, just change the way you convey them - use the reviews section!
Originally Posted by Phredreeke If someone registers an account and does nothing but downvote a game then that's pretty easily recognized as a fake account though
True, however it still counts and still adjusts the score. The admins are reluctant to remove these scores.
Originally Posted by Phredreeke Problem: You're relying on people to be nice. People are bastards.
Yes, i can see that. So that's why they can either decide to change becuase they don't like people disagreeing with them, else they can continue and find themselves banned.
This is how i see it.
Ratings turn the whole thing into a popularity contest. It breeds laziness and encourages people to vote before they have even bothered playing a game properly. Games are much more complicated that a tiny 5 star scale could ever accurately portray.
Just having thumbs up might eliminate downvoting, but thats a tiny problem that has gotten more publicity than it should in my opinion.
I say get rid of easy ratings and encourage people to make reviews. Reviews are much more helpful because they're not filled with mindless praise. (well most of the time) A few tutorials on how to make a good review would be useful too because some ive read are like love letters to the creator.
Great idea. And how about a minimum word count (150 say) so that people don't just write a couple of lines then give it 0 anyways. I like your idea, for sure!
Originally Posted by Phredreeke Problem: You're relying on people to be nice. People are bastards.
Yes, i can see that. So that's why they can either decide to change becuase they don't like people disagreeing with them, else they can continue and find themselves banned.
Grow up or don't grow up, it's everyone's choice.
So you're saying people should be banned for giving a zero star rating? Then why does it exist in the first place???
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
No, i'm saying people should be banned for winding people up and/or creating friction between members of the TDC community. If you give a game 0 stars to change the average score of a download because you disagree with its popularity then you are going to anger people. If you give it 0 stars and clearly explain why, and you explainations are rational, then you will far more less likely anger people.
I don't think the 0 star rating should be disallowed, i think it has it's place. There are some people, such as Phizzy and QuaziGNRLnose, who have recently abused the 0 star rating.
I received similar critique when I rated Simile House. I grant you my score was extremely harsh and I didn't provide enough proof as to why, but fact of the matter was, I was given shit because I didn't give it a perfect like everyone else. Even the developer of the game himself, gave to me and told me that he appreciated my honesty, so whose wrong here? I was honest at the time.
Originally Posted by Phizzy Oh so you're just abandoning your point and attacking me? Good show.
I'm not attacking, just pointing out the difference. I agree with your point about AndyUK's review, i just re-read it and thought he made his point in the right place. I don't think the right way to make your point is by deliberatly down-voting downloads, which is what you did. I have no problem with you, just what you did. Do you see?
Hmm actually maybe we shouldn't have an overall rating either? Does it need to be a competition? Do our own opinions have to drag everyone else's up or down?
We really need to encourage decent reviews guys. At the very, VERY least make one point of criticism in your comment. No game is perfect, seriously guys not even Knytt stories!
Don't aim for perfection- you'll miss the deadline
'~Tom~ says (16:41):
well why does the custom controls for the keyboard palyer even affect the menu controls at all whats thep oint jsutm ake it so for the keyboard palyer on the menu screens everything is always up down left right enter regardless of the controls they set'
Originally Posted by Phizzy See, that doesn't happen for everyone. AndyUK rated Mini Falafel 3/5. He was attacked by people saying he was voting just to reduce the score. He gave reasons for why he gave that rating. People continued. He wrote a review for the game being very clear as to why he was giving the ratings. People started commenting on his review, saying stupid things like 'the game is perfect, how dare you criticise it?'
That's not quite what happened. Although I did enjoy reading that account of helpless little AndyUK battling the entire community just to have his opinion heard.
Andy rated 3/5 - fair enough - but it was his "n/a" comment that got people upset. He then reviewed it and people disagreed, which is also fair, but then he justified his ratings by saying things like "I have very high standards for music" despite rating the ripped Xmas MIDIs in Candy Capters 7/10 - the same as Knytt Stories got for its original mp3 soundtrack. No one likes Xmas MIDIs and that's a fact, so don't try to tell us that he wrote a model review or anything. Also, I don't know where you got that quote. If you're referring to Codemonkey's comments, that's a joke and the clue is that he posted the 6 times about the same thing.
Then came Andy's trolling on the other reviews for the same game, and the continued comments on the download page to make sure that no one dared mention something positive about the graphics, music or gameplay without Andy saying obvious things like "it's easy when you know what to do". He's entitled to his opinion, but he was repeatedly checking every page relevant to the game for a few days. No idea why.
THEN came Phizzy and Phred's 0/5 rating because you think you're justice warriors or something.
Originally Posted by Phizzy No I'm not. Do people seriously not understand why I did it? A little group of BFFs (omg little finger handshake!) all went in and voted 5 purely to get it to the top of the ratings. It is clearly not the best game on the site. I fixed.
Fixed what?
You can log off any time you like, but you can't ever leave.
Originally Posted by Phizzy No I'm not. Do people seriously not understand why I did it? A little group of BFFs (omg little finger handshake!) all went in and voted 5 purely to get it to the top of the ratings. It is clearly not the best game on the site. I fixed.
Fixed what?
I don't understand Phizzy's quote either.
There is no such group of people rating my game 5/5 just to get it to the top of the charts. That's what you made up to justify your own actions, my friend.
The rating system is obviously not working and we need a new one. Your solution is to rate games 0/5 and 5/5 until the charts are displaying Phizzy's Top 10 Games?
That's not quite what happened. Although I did enjoy reading that account of helpless little AndyUK battling the entire community just to have his opinion heard.
Andy rated 3/5 - fair enough - but it was his "n/a" comment that got people upset. He then reviewed it and people disagreed, which is also fair, but then he justified his ratings by saying things like "I have very high standards for music" despite rating the ripped Xmas MIDIs in Candy Capters 7/10 - the same as Knytt Stories got for its original mp3 soundtrack. No one likes Xmas MIDIs and that's a fact, so don't try to tell us that he wrote a model review or anything. Also, I don't know where you got that quote. If you're referring to Codemonkey's comments, that's a joke and the clue is that he posted the 6 times about the same thing.
Then came Andy's trolling on the other reviews for the same game, and the continued comments on the download page to make sure that no one dared mention something positive about the graphics, music or gameplay without Andy saying obvious things like "it's easy when you know what to do". He's entitled to his opinion, but he was repeatedly checking every page relevant to the game for a few days. No idea why.
THEN came Phizzy and Phred's 0/5 rating because you think you're justice warriors or something.
I thought we were going to leave it at that Nim?
What I did was not trolling mate, Lern 2 internet plz.
You may have noticed reviews have their own little comment sections, for discussion and whatnot. Not just for writing 'great review!' or 'I disagree with this 1000 times'.
Oh actually I see you and Adam criticized the hell out of my mini Falafel adventure review which actually made some points that might be useful to you in the future.
Ricky also made a counter review because you guys got all butthurt with tons of praise and barely making any critique at all.
And what is all this AndyUK fighting against the masses you speak of? are you referring to when i wrote "It's a bit vague though."?
You're not supposed to just make stuff up you know...
Originally Posted by AshleysBrain For the record, Adam has now deleted all his comments from the link I posted. He rated it 1 star.
Your point being? You honestly think that was worth more than one star? a couple of other well-respected members of this community also gave it 1 star, so I don't think I'm to fault, and this discussion is based mainly on the 0 star ratings that took place recently out of spite. At least you got my reasonings as to why I gave your "tech demo" a 1 star rating, I mean.. that's all you can do with Construct. Make demos and the like.
Give members ability to change ratings I wouldn't have rated it 0 if I hadn't been in a bad mood.
Nim, I said I was sorry for you getting caught in the crossfire. If you think too high of yourself as to not accept it, then you can stuff it. I don't care.
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
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