Originally Posted by Johnny Look And who choose that definition, god himself ?
It's just the best way to describe God in human terms. It wasn't so much chosen as it was an attempt to describe the being that created everything.
Nothing chooses it's own definition since the definition relies on what the thing actually is.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look This isn't about science or religion this is about facts, about what's real not about stuff from some other dimension or some ridiculous garbage like that. And why do you need a eye witness for that when there are ways even more accurate than that to take information as a fact ?
You're right, it is about facts, so what's your point?
I don't need an eye witness, but some people seem to think I should.
Feeling God, and seeing his effects is enough for me, just like feeling the wind is enough for me to believe it's real.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look In any case I was talking about sodom and gomorrah.
Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't destroyed because they didn't believe in God.
How do you know they didn't believe in God?
Do you agree with how the Sodomites lived?
It's just the best way to describe God in human terms. It wasn't so much chosen as it was an attempt to describe the being that created everything.
Nothing chooses it's own definition since the definition relies on what the thing actually is.
Then who created that definition of what god is supposed to be?
You're right, it is about facts, so what's your point?
I don't need an eye witness, but some people seem to think I should.
Feeling God, and seeing his effects is enough for me, just like feeling the wind is enough for me to believe it's real.
Thing is, "feeling god" is a psychological thing and isn't really a solid proof of anything while feeling the wind is very much a physical and a real thing. I used to "feel god" pretty intensely when I believed, now I don't because I don't believe anymore. Every religious person "felt" their deities, regardless of whether they were roman, egyptian, hindu, christian or whatever, that doesn't necessarily mean they actually exist.
Of course, I'm sure you'll feel many effects because that's how the brain works. A prayer works a lot like a song, it messes with your spirit, make you more motivated/feel better about something/feel like you're not alone/etc...
I know of a lot of people who cried listening to a song or watching a movie, so that gives you an idea of how much your feelings and psychological state is moldable.
Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't destroyed because they didn't believe in God.
How do you know they didn't believe in God?
Do you agree with how the Sodomites lived?
Regardless of whether I agree or not, I wouldn't kill someone just because I disagree with his way of life, let alone massacre two entire cities and wipe out a good lot of innocents in the process.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look Then who created that definition of what god is supposed to be?
No one in particular, it's just the definition that formed from experiences with God that were recorded over the ages.
Regardless of the origin it's irrelevant since this definition is exactly what's being debated here.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look Thing is, "feeling god" is a psychological thing and isn't really a solid proof of anything while feeling the wind is very much a physical and a real thing. I used to "feel god" pretty intensely when I believed, now I don't because I don't believe anymore.
Have you ever thought that "not feeling God" was psychological since you don't want him to be real? Food for thought on your part.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look Every religious person "felt" their deities, regardless of whether they were roman, egyptian, hindu, christian or whatever, that doesn't necessarily mean they actually exist.
Maybe their "god" does exist. Who are you to say they don't?
I believe they exist, just that they aren't the God. They're just spirits.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look Of course, I'm sure you'll feel many effects because that's how the brain works. A prayer works a lot like a song, it messes with your spirit, make you more motivated/feel better about something/feel like you're not alone/etc...
I know of a lot of people who cried listening to a song or watching a movie, so that gives you an idea of how much your feelings and psychological state is moldable.
I agree, God made our brains to work this way.
Song's can move me emotionally too, and I believe God created music for this reason. Sometimes music can speak to a person more than just mere words can.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look Regardless of whether I agree or not, I wouldn't kill someone just because I disagree with his way of life, let alone massacre two entire cities and wipe out a good lot of innocents in the process.
And what does this prove?
Does this mean that God doesn't exist?
Or does this mean you just don't like God?
No one in particular, it's just the definition that formed from experiences with God that were recorded over the ages.
Regardless of the origin it's irrelevant since this definition is exactly what's being debated here.
It is relevant. The definition of god was created by ourselves, I think there is something to take from that.
Have you ever thought that "not feeling God" was psychological since you don't want him to be real? Food for thought on your part.
Who told you I don't want him to be real ? I do want but I just can't see myself believe in a (beautiful)lie just for the sake of making myself feel better.
I'm pretty sure almost everyone would want god to be real. You for instance want him to be real, am I right or wrong ?
Maybe their "god" does exist. Who are you to say they don't?
I believe they exist, just that they aren't the God. They're just spirits.
Funny, so their god are mere spirits but your god is the real one. Do you realize they probably think (thought) the same way you do?
I agree, God made our brains to work this way.
Song's can move me emotionally too, and I believe God created music for this reason. Sometimes music can speak to a person more than just mere words can.
Oh man... this is like discussing religion with a religious nutjob.
God didn't created music, we did. God didn't "make our brains work that way", natural evolution did.
And what does this prove?
Does this mean that God doesn't exist?
Or does this mean you just don't like God?
It just proves I'm a better and more merciful person than the god portrayed in the bible. At least in the real world, I don't know how stuff works in "the other dimensions".
Originally Posted by Johnny Look Who told you I don't want him to be real ? I do want but I just can't see myself believe in a (beautiful)lie just for the sake of making myself feel better.
I'm pretty sure almost everyone would want god to be real. You for instance want him to be real, am I right or wrong ?
No you don't want him to be real, you wish he wasn't with all your heart.
But somehow you know he is, and people like me remind you of him.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look Funny, so their god are mere spirits but your god is the real one. Do you realize they probably think (thought) the same way you do?
No in fact they don't.
Most people who claim to be something aren't. They just say it to give themselves a title. I've never met a person of another faith that actually believes in it except for those of the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim faith.
All it takes is a serious look at the origins of their faith and it falls apart. Not to mention their "holy" books are full of inconsistencies.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look Oh man... this is like discussing religion with a religious nutjob.
Weak arguments are often supplimented with insults because that's the only way you can feel "right."
Originally Posted by Johnny Look God didn't created music, we did. God didn't "make our brains work that way", natural evolution did.
God created physics, God created sound, God created music.
You talk about "natural evolution" like it's some sort of being. I'll give you a hint, it is. It's God.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look It just proves I'm a better and more merciful person than the god portrayed in the bible.
Like I said in earlier posts, that nation burned their babies alive. Archeology backs this up. The nations actually existed as well.
So you would let babies be burned alive eh? Guess that pretty much sums you up.
Weak arguments are often supplimented with insults because that's the only way you can feel "right."
[...]
So you would let babies be burned alive eh? Guess that pretty much sums you up.
Proves something about your argumentation.
Edit:
You know, he really was right though. You aren't discussing with people in this thread, you are preaching. You are supposed to share thoughts, and welcome others.
You don't do that.
Your whole persona actually screams of two things.
Fanatiscm.
Fundamentalism.
But don't take my word for it! Take The Oxford Dictionaries' word for it!
Fanatic:
Pronunciation:/fəˈnatɪk/
noun
a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause.
No you don't want him to be real, you wish he wasn't with all your heart.
But somehow you know he is, and people like me remind you of him.
...
Seriously, don't put words in my mouth specially when you know next to nothing about me. There is a reason why I once believed in god, and there's also a reason why I stopped believing.
If anything people like you put me off from religion even more, but thankfully I can use my own head to make my own judgements.
No in fact they don't.
Most people who claim to be something aren't. They just say it to give themselves a title.
What are you trying to say with this ? I swear I don't get it.
I've never met a person of another faith that actually believes in it except for those of the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim faith.
Are you trolling ?
All it takes is a serious look at the origins of their faith and it falls apart. Not to mention their "holy" books are full of inconsistencies.
You do realize the abrahamic religions (including christianity) start with the genesis, which, like we discussed before, is full of glaring inconsistencies ?
Weak arguments are often supplimented with insults because that's the only way you can feel "right."
It wasn't really an insult. If you take a look at what you've been writing with an open mind you'll realize what I said isn't that far off from the truth. But even if it was an insult, it doesn't necessarily mean my arguments are weak, your erratic answers prove just that.
God created physics, God created sound, God created music.
You talk about "natural evolution" like it's some sort of being. I'll give you a hint, it is. It's God.
Now I understand why the church says religion and science aren't enemies.
Like I said in earlier posts, that nation burned their babies alive. Archeology backs this up. The nations actually existed as well.
So you would let babies be burned alive eh? Guess that pretty much sums you up.
Actually, whether those cities even existed was never proven so I have my doubts they managed to find evidence that they used to burn babies in there.
So you would let babies be burned alive eh? Guess that pretty much sums you up.
I'd probably just punish whoever did that, locking them away for life not necessarily killing them. I don't think wiping out two entire cities, killing a good share of innocents in the process is the way to go.
I have the opinion that murdering an innocent because someone else did something wrong isn't right.
Sums me up pretty well yeah.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look Seriously, don't put words in my mouth specially when you know next to nothing about me. There is a reason why I once believed in god, and there's also a reason why I stopped believing.
If anything people like you put me off from religion even more, but thankfully I can use my own head to make my own judgements.
You're just as put off now as you were before, and your reasoning involves my aforementioned statements.
I had/have nothing to do with it and you know it.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look What are you trying to say with this ? I swear I don't get it.
Don't hurt yourself, just read it. I'm not "trying" to say something else. I'm saying exactly what it says.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look Are you trolling ?
If I am you are too. Short answer, "no."
Originally Posted by Johnny Look You do realize the abrahamic religions (including christianity) start with the genesis, which, like we discussed before, is full of glaring inconsistencies ?
Please point out these inconsistencies, and if you do please quote the King James Bible as your reference.
Basicly prove what you're saying is true and it might hold some weight.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look It wasn't really an insult. If you take a look at what you've been writing with an open mind you'll realize what I said isn't that far off from the truth. But even if it was an insult, it doesn't necessarily mean my arguments are weak, your erratic answers prove just that.
Nope, it's just an opinion, and there are plenty of people who disagree with you. My answers are just as erratic as yours, I'm simply debating on the same level as you. I would put some thought into it, but I know you wouldn't read it since you're just throwing out random statements without proving any of them, so I'll do the same. You've been repeating the same lines over and over this whole thread, go re-read your other posts and you'll see what I mean.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look
Originally Posted by UrbanMonk
God created physics, God created sound, God created music.
You talk about "natural evolution" like it's some sort of being. I'll give you a hint, it is. It's God.
Now I understand why the church says religion and science aren't enemies.
Who do you mean "the church?" I'm not catholic if that's what you're implying, but I'll agree.
Science doesn't "create" anything, all it does is examine the things that are already here.
God created the things that science examines, so yeah it's not too hard to understand.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look
Originally Posted by UrbanMonk
Like I said in earlier posts, that nation burned their babies alive. Archeology backs this up. The nations actually existed as well.
So you would let babies be burned alive eh? Guess that pretty much sums you up.
Actually, whether those cities even existed was never proven so I have my doubts they managed to find evidence that they used to burn babies in there.
Not only is it Biblical, but the other nations in that area that were found during archeological digs had the same culture.
Those other nations are also in the Bible. All of them. Some still exist today. Like Damascus, which is prophesied to be destroyed completely in the Bible.
So look out for that happening. lol
"The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from [being] a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. " -Isaiah 17:1
Originally Posted by Johnny Look
Originally Posted by UrbanMonk So you would let babies be burned alive eh? Guess that pretty much sums you up.
I'd probably just punish whoever did that, locking them away for life not necessarily killing them. I don't think wiping out two entire cities, killing a good share of innocents in the process is the way to go.
I have the opinion that murdering an innocent because someone else did something wrong isn't right.
Sums me up pretty well yeah.
The Bible says that they couldn't find even ten righteous men in all the city. (The word "men" being used to refer to any human)
So you're assuming there were innocent people, when there wasn't.
So back to my previous question:
Would you allow people who burned babies alive to live?
You're just as put off now as you were before, and your reasoning involves my aforementioned statements.
I had/have nothing to do with it and you know it.
Of course you have nothing to do with me not believing in god, that's not the point.
What I meant to say is that you're not defending your beliefs/religion very well, on the contrary. Like eternalman put it, you're not discussing, you are preaching. You can't answer anything with solid arguments, only incredibly ambiguous and erratic "arguments" (if I could call them that) and passages from the bible.
Don't hurt yourself, just read it. I'm not "trying" to say something else. I'm saying exactly what it says.
So if I understood it right, everyone except christians, just say they are believers to give themselves a title ?..
Please point out these inconsistencies, and if you do please quote the King James Bible as your reference.
Basicly prove what you're saying is true and it might hold some weight.
You can't be serious, we just discussed about this and no I surely won't be quoting the king james bible as reference (what was the point of this, exactly ?). Most of the inconsistencies I pointed out (there are more, those were just some of the most obvious ones) are common knowledge and scientifically explained phenomenas, I don't know what more proof you want me to bring to you.
If I am you are too. Short answer, "no."
Ok then. So you are basically implying only people who follow one of the abrahamic religions actually believe on them ?
Basically, egyptians, romans, hindus and so were religious just for the sake of it ?
Nope, it's just an opinion, and there are plenty of people who disagree with you. My answers are just as erratic as yours, I'm simply debating on the same level as you. I would put some thought into it, but I know you wouldn't read it since you're just throwing out random statements without proving any of them, so I'll do the same. You've been repeating the same lines over and over this whole thread, go re-read your other posts and you'll see what I mean.
I don't think you don't quite realize what I was talking about. I just find it ironic that you're talking to me about not bringing proof to the table when that's what I've been doing all along. It's just that you don't accept well known and scientifically explained facts and reply with nonsensical phrases about god being the creator of this and that. Where's the proof of that ?
Who do you mean "the church?" I'm not catholic if that's what you're implying, but I'll agree.
Science doesn't "create" anything, all it does is examine the things that are already here.
God created the things that science examines, so yeah it's not too hard to understand.
Here we go again...
Sciences also examines how these things were created actually, which most of the time conflicts with the "scientific findings" of the bible. i.e god creating earth flat and immovable, god creating earth in 7 days etc...
By the way by church I meant christian people as a whole (believers, priests, etc...).
Not only is it Biblical, but the other nations in that area that were found during archeological digs had the same culture.
Those other nations are also in the Bible. All of them. Some still exist today. Like Damascus, which is prophesied to be destroyed completely in the Bible.
So look out for that happening. lol
"The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from [being] a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. " -Isaiah 17:1
Yes, some real nations/cities are in the bible which is to be expected since whoever made the writings knew about their existence and it's also expected neighboring nations/cities to have a similar cultures, what's that supposed to prove ?
No one ever found ruins that could be related to sodom and gomorrah, now this is a fact.
The Bible says that they couldn't find even ten righteous men in all the city. (The word "men" being used to refer to any human)
So you're assuming there were innocent people, when there wasn't.
So back to my previous question:
Would you allow people who burned babies alive to live?
Ahahah way to distort the story. So everyone in those cities had a thing for burning babies alive ? I'm pretty sure that when they said they couldn't find less than ten righteous men they didn't mean they couldn't find ten persons who didn't have the habit of burning babies.
But answering your question and pretending almost everyone burnt babies, no I wouldn't kill 10 or less innocents because of what others did.
Originally Posted by Eternal Man [EE]
Originally Posted by Johnny Look .
I second that!
Ahaha sorry about that, I accidentally clicked on the post reply button and had to edit the post just in case someone posted something afterwards.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look You can't answer anything with solid arguments, only incredibly ambiguous and erratic "arguments" (if I could call them that) and passages from the bible.
My statements have neither been ambiguous nor erratic.
Sounds again like all you can do is insult to try and make yourself feel more "right."
Originally Posted by Johnny Look So if I understood it right, everyone except christians, just say they are believers to give themselves a title ?..
I didn't say that, so I'll quote myself to clarify:
Originally Posted by UrbanMonk Most people who claim to be something aren't. They just say it to give themselves a title. I've never met a person of another faith that actually believes in it except for those of the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim faith.
So I included Jewish and Muslim in there also...and I didn't say "everyone" just the people I've met, and I've met alot. I talk to everyone. lol
I'm sure there might be someone else of another faith somewhere that actually believes it, but it's usually because they've never been exposed to anything else.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look You can't be serious, we just discussed about this and no I surely won't be quoting the king james bible as reference (what was the point of this, exactly ?). Most of the inconsistencies I pointed out (there are more, those were just some of the most obvious ones) are common knowledge and scientifically explained phenomenas, I don't know what more proof you want me to bring to you.
I was/am serious, and why not? If you're going to say that there are inconsistencies you need to give the quotes where they are, but I know you won't because they don't exist.
You have yet to state an inconsistency. All you can do is repeatedly misconstrue the events of Sodom and Gomorrah as if your (incorrect) recall of the events holds any weight.
And please don't use evolution as proof, because you know as well as I do that it can't explain the beginning of everything. All it can do is offer a suggested theory.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look Sciences also examines how these things were created actually...
What things? Where did all the matter come from that makes all these things? What set the physics in motion, who created the scientific laws that govern our universe? Did those "evolve" too? Please, do tell.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look ..., which most of the time conflicts with the "scientific findings" of the bible. i.e god creating earth flat and immovable, god creating earth in 7 days etc...
"flat and immovable?" Please point me to that scripture. lol.
The Bible doesn't say the Earth is flat once. Not in the original Hebrew or otherwise.
Not only that, but most ancient people by this time knew the earth was a sphere, and a Greek by the name of Eratosthenes calculated its circumference in 240 BC.
Then there's this:
"[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, ..." -Isaiah 40:22
Of course you can take it anyway you want.
It's easy to make excuses for it if you don't want to believe it.
Which I'm sure you'll do a good job of in your next post.
EDIT: whoa! Forgot the 7 days bit.
This is my theory:
God created everything in 7 days according to the Genesis account, then
When he created Adam and Eve they had to be at least old enough to take care of themselves.
He couldn't have created babies, at least that wouldn't make any sense.
So he must have created them fully grown.
So with that in mind, why couldn't God create a old Earth as well?
Originally Posted by Johnny Look Yes, some real nations/cities are in the bible which is to be expected since whoever made the writings knew about their existence and it's also expected neighboring nations/cities to have a similar cultures, what's that supposed to prove ?
No one ever found ruins that could be related to sodom and gomorrah, now this is a fact.
They found the ruins to all the other cities, so what makes you think Sodom and Gomorrah would be an exception?
I guess if you want to hold out until it's found you can do that if it'll make you feel better, but I think it's just another excuse you're making for yourself.
Originally Posted by Johnny Look Ahahah way to distort the story. So everyone in those cities had a thing for burning babies alive ? I'm pretty sure that when they said they couldn't find less than ten righteous men they didn't mean they couldn't find ten persons who didn't have the habit of burning babies.
But answering your question and pretending almost everyone burnt babies, no I wouldn't kill 10 or less innocents because of what others did.
Ok, good I'm glad you wouldn't kill any innocent people.
Now looking back at what God did, and thinking about it logically, do you really think he killed any innocent people?
You're assuming there were 10 or less. How do you know?
Fact is, you don't. So there goes that argument. Whoops.
I haven't actually read any of these, however, they serve to prove the point, being that there are quite a few people in the world that feel that there are inconsistencies in the bible.
These are six of the first ten results out of ~1 540 000 results for "inconsistencies in the bible" on google.
My statements have neither been ambiguous nor erratic.
Sounds again like all you can do is insult to try and make yourself feel more "right."
Read what eternalman wrote on your "argumentation" of sorts. He also believes in god if I'm not mistaken btw so it's not really about taking sides or making myself feel more right or wrong.
So I included Jewish and Muslim in there also...and I didn't say "everyone" just the people I've met, and I've met alot. I talk to everyone. lol
I don't know what point you were trying to make then ?
I'm sure there might be someone else of another faith somewhere that actually believes it, but it's usually because they've never been exposed to anything else.
Not only this is an incredibly ridiculous and ignorant thing to say, this is also insulting to anyone who follows a different faith from yours. Just let me tell you, you're wrong.
I was/am serious, and why not? If you're going to say that there are inconsistencies you need to give the quotes where they are, but I know you won't because they don't exist.
Didn't god create earth ? Didn't he create us humans ?
Do I really need to quote the bible, aren't these passages well known enough ?
You have yet to state an inconsistency. All you can do is repeatedly misconstrue the events of Sodom and Gomorrah as if your (incorrect) recall of the events holds any weight.
I've mentioned quite a few inconsistencies, you either can't see them or you don't want to.
As for sodom and gommorrah, you still insist that everyone in those two cities used to burn babies ?
And please don't use evolution as proof, because you know as well as I do that it can't explain the beginning of everything. All it can do is offer a suggested theory.
Evolution doesn't prove how everything was created, it just proves we evolved from other species.
Therefore god didn't create us, and adam and eve never existed.
And it's not just a theory, it's a fact.
"flat and immovable?" Please point me to that scripture. lol.
The Bible doesn't say the Earth is flat once. Not in the original Hebrew or otherwise.
Are you sure ?
Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Not only that, but most ancient people by this time knew the earth was a sphere, and a Greek by the name of Eratosthenes calculated its circumference in 240 BC.
Actually, the knowledge that the Earth was spherical only became widespread in the rest of the world by 300 a.c
Early christians for instance didn't accept that theory and it took several centuries before it became widely accepted.
Then there's this:
"[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, ..." -Isaiah 40:22
Circle, not sphere- therefore flat.
Of course you can take it anyway you want.
It's easy to make excuses for it if you don't want to believe it.
Which I'm sure you'll do a good job of in your next post.
Your theory being, I hate god and everything related to him and I don't believe because I don't want to even though I know he exists.
Shows how much you know about me and my past. If you make a site search I'm sure you can find the last big thread we had here on religion and perhaps you'll be surprised to see in which side I was.
When you refer my arguments as excuses or desperately try to make me look I'm some god hater or something you are only digging yourself a bigger hole.
God created everything in 7 days according to the Genesis account, then
When he created Adam and Eve they had to be at least old enough to take care of themselves.
He couldn't have created babies, at least that wouldn't make any sense.
So he must have created them fully grown.
So with that in mind, why couldn't God create a old Earth as well?
None of what you wrote in there made sense. Earth took about 15 million years to be created, not 7 days. Adam and eve couldn't have existed since according to the bible they were made in one day (the sixth if i'm not mistaken) while we took another few million years to evolve into what looks more or less like a human. Even the races that preceded us took more than one day to to evolve to their final form.
They found the ruins to all the other cities, so what makes you think Sodom and Gomorrah would be an exception?
I guess if you want to hold out until it's found you can do that if it'll make you feel better, but I think it's just another excuse you're making for yourself.
They found the ruins of all the other cities, except sodom and gommorrah. Sodom and gommorrah were the exception because they probably never existed in the first place.
Seriously, just read what's on wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah#Historicity
Perhaps not the best source of reliable information in the world, but I looked everywhere and none of the articles and sites I found conflict with what's in there.
Now looking back at what God did, and thinking about it logically, do you really think he killed any innocent people?
You're assuming there were 10 or less. How do you know?
So you still insist that every single person in those two cities burned babies ?
edit: didn't see this bit.
What things? Where did all the matter come from that makes all these things? What set the physics in motion, who created the scientific laws that govern our universe? Did those "evolve" too? Please, do tell.
From what we know, everything started with the big bang; physics, matter, etc..
I can see your next argument being something along the lines of "but it was god who created the big bang!".
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Edited by Eternal Man [EE]
