No, the community isn't dead yet. But it will be someday. It's not dying a painful, cancerous death. It's dying of natural causes, aging to death slowly enough that nobody seems to notice. Want evidence? What happened to the greatest klikers? The biggest groups? Blackeye Software, Drunken Missile, FAInd, Mark Pay, Tigerworks? Most of them have left the community, or just hanging around as old veterans, chatting, criticizing, etc... but hardly making games.
The community could easily be resurrected if only there was a flow of newbies into the community to cover for the skilled retirees. Of course there's noobs... but there's just not enough of them, at least not enough who hang around long enough to become respectable professionals. To get enough people to join the community... we have to create something that'll actually charm them. ED, Commando, Bernard & Hank would be great... if it was 1995 or if they were on mobile phones. Games that stand outside the SNES fanatic market are games with their own unique appeal.. like TSE and Siege (and a lot of others I'm too lazy to think about ).
Games are just another form of entertainment, like say.. music. Like music, it's really not that fun to have this great song but nobody to hear it. Like music, everyone masters their instruments individually... be it voice, guitar, drums, violins, keyboards... or 2D graphics, 3D graphics, klik coding, C++, sound editing, composing, etc.
And like music, the best is created when musicians team up. Creating a game all by yourself is like playing all the instruments seperately, then recording it together to make one album. It's almost impossible to have all that time unless you have no life, and by the time you're finished, you only have enough time to make something average.
Now don't get me wrong, there are good games that are finished solo. But the effort itself leaves the created drained, rather than motivated to make another game. My suggestion is not to make one huge symphony... that would be impossible to manage and coordinate. Instead, I suggest that the best people make what they enjoy doing. A skilled graphics artist can create his own library of fully animated characters, which a skilled coder can use in his great engine. Use someone else's recorded bass and drum beats... you can have your own solo on top of it. Don't think of it as ripped graphics or engines... just donated ones. The same character could be in many games, just like an actress is in many movies. The same engine could be used for many games, just the way cars use the same engines. Of course, credit has to be given.
The biggest flaw in this idea is that everyone's style is different. And I think the solution would simply be to have enough people churn out enough stuff to match the style. Things that EVERYONE uses, like platform engines, backdrops and RPG battle engines can be mass produced. Heck, we could have competitions for the best one. This Ultimate Engine can then be used by noobs as long as they give credit.
Another thing... let's end this inter-kliker rivalry. It's sad when people bash other people over tutorials, games, etc, when their games aren't any good either. It's much sadder when people create games "like ED, but better!" Instead, focus on rivalling with other game making software, like Flash, AGS, GM, RPGMaker, Blitz. Instead of focusing on who has the better ED clone... the engines to such masterpieces should be given freely and we can compete on who makes the game that's more fun.
It's a big idea, not to everyone's taste. But perhaps that's because we're not used to it. Take the ancient Mongols for example. They were all great warriors, capable of shooting each other's eyes out before beating them to pulp. But once they focus their talents against the rest of the world, they were nearly unstoppable. Imagine what we could do if we focused our skills...
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I agree, if everyone was into helping each other make good games the community would be a better place. More people would be teaming up and using their gifts to the fullest. There's no telling what kind of games we would have if everyone put their talents to use. We got people who can code making their own graphics when there's someone on the site better than them. It makes no sense, why not work together as a whole to improve? Especialy when the fact is we all want the same thing. Making that perfect game you dreamed of. Now I dont mean some huge group has to form, but even two people working together is better than one. The quality of the games on the site would improve aswell.
Friendly intra-community rivalry is good as well - when my brother and I start on similar games at the same time we get far more done to each of them. And I think the DC game is a great example of what the community can do together, bugs notwithstanding at the moment.
Assault Andy Administrator
I make other people create vaporware
Registered 29/07/2002
Points 5686
19th April, 2006 at 10:46:43 -
IT'S NOT DEAD. Looking at the amount of people post on the boards (Across all kliking sites) and the amount of klikers who I talk to on MSN, I can see that that the community is not 'dying' and is not going to 'die' any time soon. I don't want to go into another thread on if the community is dying, there are enough of them already. Just look at the past GOTW's and you can see most of them ooze with quality. I agree that some groups have left, that's a fact. BUT I disagree that there are not enough 'noobs' to fill the void. There are plenty, I can assure you of that. Basically, I just help anyone that asks for it (Occasionally getting frustrated, but I always manage to get them the answer in the end).
As for releasing engines, I was considering doing that, but then again someone reminded me that you would have a whole bunch of 'noobs' who would not understand how to use the engine. I still think it's a good idea however.
Buh, stop saying it's dying. This community is more alive than it ever was. There is a lot of young talent coming in all the time, MMF2 is coming up and a lot of decent games are coming out. And for me it's more fun than it ever was as well. I am doing what I want to do (making so called SNES fanboy games) with a small and stable team.
You are totally right about rivalling with the other gamemaking tools, click was very underrepresented on the Caiman Easter competion for example.
To be honest, group projects are more tiresome than the individual ones. If it's ever going to work there are strict deadlines and there is always the possibility of letting people down. It's mentally and physically stressing (I know from coding an engine overnight with no sleep to meet deadlines), and the sense of self satisfaction is all I need, but that is not to everyones taste. Usually the person leading the project is highlighted in all their glory and the backstage people left behind, which is not what most people want. A lot of people seek to make a name for them self in the community and individual projects are really the only things that achieve this. If the community were dying it would be due to the pressure from the elites on the n00bs. If we needed more n00bs (please no!) then why is the road pointed to the slaughter house? I have found with this community there seems to be a general ignorance to unfamiliar faces which again gives the impression the community is dying. What I think you may be referring to is the fact that anybody with the ability to use a computer can make a game using click products so the once WOW factor you could get form making a game is not so wow because it's nothing new in the sense you are looking at it. Focus your attention on the game itself rather than the "omgz I did this and you can't" crap that used to make n00bs feel like god for doing something different. These are just my opinions and I won't pass any of them off as real facts because they can't all be fully justified, I am sure everyone has made up in their mind if the community is dying, and anyone is capable of taking steps to ensure it doesn't die given that they don't want it to, though I am sure for most people who think this place is dying, killing it is the only way of making it feel alive again.
Hmm that must suck. It's not always the project leader though. On all the games I have worked on, Hayo has been the project leader and he is all too willing to let people know I did stuff but people don't really care about that.
Do you feel you are being... watched?
Peblo Custom ratings must be 50 characters or less
Registered 05/07/2002
Points 185
19th April, 2006 at 14:50:59 -
Whoa, fell asleep talking to you about this.
"Isn't it always amazing how we characterize a person's intelligence by how closely their thinking matches ours?"
~Belgarath
Dustin Gunn Gnarly Tubular Way Cool Awesome Groovy Mondo
If anything, it's been slowly dieing since your arrival... Well, maybe not. You have removed the name n00b from many people, because it came to show us, that they arent as bad as we though.
If Clickteam can successfully market MMF2, than we have no problem. That would take care of the influx of newbies.
Also, Fallen Angel and Mark Pay aren't dead. Plus, the newbie issue isn't that big of a problem. It only looks like it to you because you don't recognize the people who come in.
Also, klik groups have already been spliting up the work for years. How many soundtracks has TwiTerror composed for other games? Besides, there are already a multitude of game engines out there, and there are a few graphic libraries. Even with the myriad of game engines, people still make engines because they have to be specific to the creator's game. That's why you can't just churn out an engine for every possible game.
if u guyz read the TimeLine or know whats there then you should know that there 'were' few places when community sites were going down one by one and yes 'The Community Was Dieing' but then there are a lot of them remaining right now TDC , Klik-Me , Total Klik is back ( one of the 'going down sites' ) but as circy says it'll gonna collapse soon. As long as these sites are alive , maybe a small one but this community is gonna stay alive . And maybe peoples here start working on other projects besides using clickteam tools .. i have a plan of one such thing like that .. anywayz kliking doing just fine right now
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(='.'=This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into ur
(")_(")signature to help him gain world domination.
Fallen Angel is dead to me. They've got several members but nobodys released any projects recently - apart from ZeroTau and Bernie. I think the last completed game by Beau for example was Douglas Circumstance and that was released when... about 2003?
I believe this site will stick around for quite awhile, I have to admit that I didn't expect it to be around when I checked the other day, but to my pleasant surprise it was, with alot of new members, but some of the older ones too.
n/a
Dustin Gunn Gnarly Tubular Way Cool Awesome Groovy Mondo
Registered 15/12/2004
Points 2659
21st April, 2006 at 06:51:23 -
"Fallen Angel is dead to me. They've got several members but nobodys released any projects recently - apart from ZeroTau and Bernie. I think the last completed game by Beau for example was Douglas Circumstance and that was released when... about 2003"
Beau didn't make Douglas Circumstance, and the last game he completed was Tango Strike. Also, if you want a klik group that doesn't release games anymore, www.natomic.com
I think FAInd could be considered dead. Like Circy said theres only two people making games, which is a far cry from what it used to be. There isn't even a website cause nobody can be bothered doing anything about it. That doesn't sound 'alive' to me.
In response to the original post, all your suggestions go against what MMF is really good for. It's good for making simple SNES type games by yourself. Sure it's possible to do something more ambitious, but very difficult. I think the results speak for themselves, how many good games are there made for MMF that aren't retro style platformers? Very few. If you want ambitious games go and hang out somewhere else. I couldn't really suggest anywhere seeing people making ambitious indepedant games are very few and far between. You can try Gamedev.net, although the results people on there are getting are similiar to the results you get with your deeply thought out but ultimately delusional posts.
This is the modern way, faking it every day and taking it as we come, but we're not the only ones. Is that what we used to say? This is the modern way.
The Community is dying just the way people are dying. Slowly and unnoticably. Cept thanks to technology, it's dying a lot faster than most people. Sure, the forums are active, but they're nowhere near as active as they used to be 5 years ago. There are people on MSNM, but the IRC channels can easily be considered dead.
The quality of games these days are technically better, but the fun factor seems to be rapidly dropping. I miss the old games like Flatworld, Gun Runners, Trigger Happy, Diabolika, Siege, The Line series, TNB series, etc. They were simple, buggy, had ripped music, etc. But they were a great deal of fun. Back then, it was a thrill to check the Pending page for new games but these days, there's just nothing special.
Ech, I have to see MMF2 before I can really decide whether it'll work or not. MMF 1.5 was a significant improvement over the first (despite the initial hatred), though Jamagic apparently didn't work out too well (despite the hype).
The influx of newbies is well.. there... but unlike back in the original Click Cafe days (pre-TDC, pre-TK), the ratio of them getting beaten to death is a lot higher than it used to be.
MMF is good for making *2D* games, not just simple SNES type games. Not text, not 3D. Just as long as it's in 2D, there's plenty of potential. The trick is not to push its limits, unlike what most of us have been trying... but to find a system that'll exploit the limited features. MMF seems to be able to handle loading/saving pretty well, so why not use that bit to our advantage?
Inner rivalry is OK, but it'll only be limited to the latest technology. Simple clans and tribes are created with inner rivalry. Countries and empires are created with outer rivalry.. of course, with that comes annoying stuff like bureaucracy and taxes, but IMHO, it's more fun to live with a fridge, washing machine, grocery stores and some taxes & admins, rather than live with a barter system, a homemade dagger, and work hard just to get a little roasted food.
Teamwork is for those who have the will to work together. Teamwork is the difference between big fat, ugly companies that release games like the C&C series, Empire Earth II, Halo 2, the Prince of Persia series, Warcraft series, Fable, Manhunt, all those games that the little guys who work solo are trying to clone. Sure, they have time, money, skill, etc... but they wouldn't get that way in the first place if it wasn't for teamwork. They buy engines, but only those with superior skill have the time and money to make their own.
It's sometimes/usually best to work on your own... but it'll save a lot of time to leave the boring parts (conversation, movement) to the best. That is, if you're interest is in focusing on the games, not engines. The noobs might have a little trouble learning to use them, but overall, they'll learn faster when they have something complex to learn from.
Even if the community isn't dying... this'll at least increase the growth rate.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Just because it's over for you doesn't mean it's over for us. The last thing this "community" needs is an old man who keeps saying everything is going downhill.
Good ol' muz, out with the traditional "OMG WTF TEH COMMUNITY IS DYEING!!111" post. I haven't been paying attention, but I would actually say there are fewer newbies entering the community these days. MMF 1.5 isn't being promoted or pushed at all by Clickteam until MMF2.
But what do I know, I'm just an old veteran hanging round, chatting, criticizing
"The trick is not to push its limits, unlike what most of us have been trying... but to find a system that'll exploit the limited features."
-That is pushing the limits.
"The influx of newbies is well.. there... but unlike back in the original Click Cafe days (pre-TDC, pre-TK), the ratio of them getting beaten to death is a lot higher than it used to be. "
-That's because the people back then were mostly newbies themselves.
"The quality of games these days are technically better, but the fun factor seems to be rapidly dropping. I miss the old games like Flatworld, Gun Runners, Trigger Happy, Diabolika, Siege, The Line series, TNB series, etc. They were simple, buggy, had ripped music, etc. But they were a great deal of fun. Back then, it was a thrill to check the Pending page for new games but these days, there's just nothing special."
-That's because you've grown up. Before, toys like yo-yos and action figures would provide hours of entertainment. Back then, you were more easily amused: that's why the old games seemed to be better. If you go back and play most of those games, you'll notice that they're good, but the games being made today are still as good if not better than those games.
Still play those old games and they're as fun as they used to. More fun than I remember, considering that I played TNB and One Step From Reality till the end again. I dunno, didn't really enjoy NL, AGWAK, or any of those new games nearly as much. Maybe I'm just not a fan of platformers. Hmm... seem to have a lot of other nice games. Maybe I should pull out Fallout Tactics and X-Com Apocalypse out for a run..
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
look there are tons of people around, but they just release, useless, useless crap again and again their is no innovation what so ever and most innovation with the tools is done behind closed doors and never released to the community, however if their wasnt such a stream of crap flowing out of the works, and instead of people remaking things already done or making god damn games that involve ripped sprites atempting to work as orginally intended, its just the communitys fallen to the boring un-creative bastards that now create the majority which leaves the others uninspired to do anything creative with tools they feel arent challenging or good enough if they can help churn out the crap you get in the downloads section every week.
The only thing better than winning gold in the paralympics is not being retarted
There is really no point to this. More and more I'm reading about "Klik supergroups". It's the hot topic right now, Infact it's frontpage news. So if you're going to keep complaining about it, then most likely people are going to start thinking it's true. If anything is dying it would be your interest in the "community".
I think I should make a weekly review, give the less known games a little chance to survive in this big world of klik. Maybe offer them some advice.
thinking is like pong, it's easy, but you miss sometimes.
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Basically, I just help anyone that asks for it (Occasionally getting frustrated, but I always manage to get them the answer in the end).
Klik with the kid!
