well, ive been watching a few videos on youtube, mainly alot of polical stuff supporting obama, and anti-gay marrage and all kinds of things. ive come across people like micheal savage and fred phelps, and george carlin and a whole bunch of random people with random opinions and things.
i literally started crying on this one savage show where he bashed this gay lady for asking him why he was so hateful to gays. savage kept cutting off her mic, and screaming at her calling her an unintellegent moron and things like that. why? why do people actually listen to this garbage and not notice that they purposefully pick opposing callers taht arent quick speakers and keep cutting them off?
i dont get this world anymore. everyone is so hellbent on controling one another, and no one can just let everyone be. its funny becase our governemtns protect the things that cause most crimes, murders, thefts. things like money, religeon, racism, control... and the fact that people know this, but allow it anyway.
for whatever reason everyone thinks that we need a government or a religeon or money in order to live. if we just had a few states producing food, we could indefinatly produce food for the whole world. its a real shame to see empty houses or aparments when there is a homless family sitting by hungry and cold on the street.
i dont know it just really makes me sad that these things happen and we all continue to let it happen. i hav such bad anxiety because of things like this. it would be so great to just be left alone, but instead i have these asshole ramming thier propaganda down my throat. everyone wants to tell me what to think and believe and its like i really cant take it anymore.
it boggles my mind to see the most horrible crimes happening in the name of a god, or a government or for money or power.
i was brought up in this country to believe that i had a voice and a choice and my vote counts, but it is a real shame the day you figure out that none of that is true. its a shame when you wake up and realize that you have to spend your life working at a bullshit job for minimum wage or you die. or that you cant go to school because the loan companies refuse to wish you up a loan because you dont have enough invible numbers in your bank account or an imaginary credit score or a cosigner.
its a shame to hear the same crap on the radio, or play the same video games or watch the same tv show because its trendy or its been statistically proven to get good ratings. its a damn shame when you cant get a job because some idiot on the radio told everyone that there arent enough imaginary numbers to regulate how much stuff you can buy.
a wise man once told me that the only thing that gives money its power or value is faith. if we lose faith in money it loses its power. i dont know what to do about it.
if any of you have any free time, i recommend watching the zietgiest movies. i watched them a couple months ago and they are very good movies. there are alot of flaws in them though (especially the religous section) but there are still some very valuable grains of knowledge in them.
but yeah, those are just some thoughts ive been having, anyone else have any thoughts on the subjects?
Peblo Custom ratings must be 50 characters or less
Registered 05/07/2002
Points 185
4th March, 2009 at 05:20:46 -
You know, for thousands of years, a huge goal in people's lives was to be right. Yay crusades, we are right, God said so. Think we're wrong? Have a war. Starting to prove me wrong? I'll cut you off the mic.
Though, you know, this is a ego-istic world. The ego is the way of survival. You can't POSSIBLY survive and be wrong... what will people think of you? What will you think of YOURSELF? Or you know, even worse, what will God or such think of you? If I'm wrong enough, I will die alone, not even a friend to myself. The world's subconscious reality can be depressing, and people are starting to become even more aware of it.
Eh, religion often has a good point though, even though it's a key player in slowly destroying the world. If you don't live in the world, the ego, then all of a sudden nothing can hurt you.
That's all wrong.
"Isn't it always amazing how we characterize a person's intelligence by how closely their thinking matches ours?"
~Belgarath
Originally Posted by Peblo You know, for thousands of years, a huge goal in people's lives was to be right. Yay crusades, we are right, God said so. Think we're wrong? Have a war. Starting to prove me wrong? I'll cut you off the mic.
Though, you know, this is a ego-istic world. The ego is the way of survival. You can't POSSIBLY survive and be wrong... what will people think of you? What will you think of YOURSELF? Or you know, even worse, what will God or such think of you? If I'm wrong enough, I will die alone, not even a friend to myself. The world's subconscious reality can be depressing, and people are starting to become even more aware of it.
Eh, religion often has a good point though, even though it's a key player in slowly destroying the world. If you don't live in the world, the ego, then all of a sudden nothing can hurt you.
That's all wrong.
lol, i dont know if your intention was to have a comedic spin on it, but it did. thanks for cheering me up.
religeon has always been a double edged sword. ive tried very hard to fit in with the christian crowd, but the only thing that deterred me were other christians. i remember gowing to youth group and taking a look at all the preachy kids that were all about god when they were there but back at school were some of the snottiest, unethical unchritian trash that ive ever seen.
as far as religeon is concerned, a few major ones are supposed to prech peace and all that junk, but they are the first to pull the trigger. i like how people like the fred phelps baptists preach hate messages to gays and "perverts", but doesnt the bible say things like "judge not lest yet ye be judged" or soemthing or even jesus chillin with the tax men and beggers and stuff. Christians dont care about that crap, its like you said "im right and your wrong, god is on my side because i go to church and can remember like 10 universal bible quotes".
The world and people in it are nutters. Nothing more than that!
On a side note I hate how selective our country is with discrimination. It's a pick and mix of protecting minorities but only those that are vocal in retaliation. It's okay to joke about Polish and eastern Europeans but my god make a joke about anyone from the middle east and BAM. It's the PC police for you. Bernard Manning (that fat twunt) oddly had it right - everyone is fair game or nobody is.
Interesting topic. If you are a sensitive person (as I am) it's best to avoid getting too far deep into "worldly" things such as politics and the daily news or you can find yourself in depression or anxiety/rage.. As peblo said ^^ this is still an egoistic world (but I live in hope that will change one day when people wake up - or we will become extinct like the dinosaur, through wars or such)
I too watched the zeitgeist movie, along with david icke's conspiracy rantings and also have an interest in esoteric subjects lately. It's good to be aware of all these things but you must remember that giving emotion or energy to evil or injustice only makes those things stronger. Whatever you resist persists this is why "wars" against things do NOT work - the "war against terrorism" the "war against drugs" etc. They always fail.
Accept things are still a certain way in this world for now - and focus more on the good.
I go through phases where I cannot watch the news or read a newspaper because the information falls into one of two category's
a) celebrities pumping up their egos/showing off
b) negativity in some form - be it wars/famous people with cancer/people being tortured etc.
I feel that alot of the stress-related problems people face these days are down to the globalisation of "news" (the news THEY want you to know about) the anxiety and guilt etc we are made to feel for bad things going on all over the world - where a normal person cannot really help, I just don't see the point of it.
The world is indeed a depressing place. But try to remember that it's not God's fault that men use religion as an excuse for war. Blame men and their stupidity. Only thing to do is keep your head up and do what you know is right.
The subject of religion is very complicated, as you well know. I, like you, know many "Christians" who are not pure-hearted. They just go to church and don't take what the Bible teaches to heart. There is a difference and it is sad that pretenders and hypocrites exist. But I haven't let other stupid people deter me in my pursuit of Christ. My family was kicked out of our church because of one liar! I know firsthand the effects that a deceitful man who hides under a shroud of being a "Christian" can have, and I still have faith. It is one of my mottos to ignore the stupidity but help the stupid.
Originally Posted by Dr. James The world and people in it are nutters. Nothing more than that!
On a side note I hate how selective our country is with discrimination. It's a pick and mix of protecting minorities but only those that are vocal in retaliation. It's okay to joke about Polish and eastern Europeans but my god make a joke about anyone from the middle east and BAM. It's the PC police for you. Bernard Manning (that fat twunt) oddly had it right - everyone is fair game or nobody is.
yeah i agree, ive had my share of discrimination. it really sucks bad.
Originally Posted by steve Interesting topic. If you are a sensitive person (as I am) it's best to avoid getting too far deep into "worldly" things such as politics and the daily news or you can find yourself in depression or anxiety/rage.. As peblo said ^^ this is still an egoistic world (but I live in hope that will change one day when people wake up - or we will become extinct like the dinosaur, through wars or such)
I too watched the zeitgeist movie, along with david icke's conspiracy rantings and also have an interest in esoteric subjects lately. It's good to be aware of all these things but you must remember that giving emotion or energy to evil or injustice only makes those things stronger. Whatever you resist persists this is why "wars" against things do NOT work - the "war against terrorism" the "war against drugs" etc. They always fail.
Accept things are still a certain way in this world for now - and focus more on the good.
I go through phases where I cannot watch the news or read a newspaper because the information falls into one of two category's
a) celebrities pumping up their egos/showing off
b) negativity in some form - be it wars/famous people with cancer/people being tortured etc.
I feel that alot of the stress-related problems people face these days are down to the globalisation of "news" (the news THEY want you to know about) the anxiety and guilt etc we are made to feel for bad things going on all over the world - where a normal person cannot really help, I just don't see the point of it.
itd be way easier to stay out of the way if i didnt keep getting harassed by police, or denied loans or anything. my family are total news hounds too, always watching the news and actually think that their opinion matters. you forgot one, politicians bashing each other, which to me just looks like a "sophisticated" reality show.
Originally Posted by OldManClayton The world is indeed a depressing place. But try to remember that it's not God's fault that men use religion as an excuse for war. Blame men and their stupidity. Only thing to do is keep your head up and do what you know is right.
The subject of religion is very complicated, as you well know. I, like you, know many "Christians" who are not pure-hearted. They just go to church and don't take what the Bible teaches to heart. There is a difference and it is sad that pretenders and hypocrites exist. But I haven't let other stupid people deter me in my pursuit of Christ. My family was kicked out of our church because of one liar! I know firsthand the effects that a deceitful man who hides under a shroud of being a "Christian" can have, and I still have faith. It is one of my mottos to ignore the stupidity but help the stupid.
sheesh, i didnt take you as such a god freak (lol, jk you do what you want). but anyways, you are totally right, i commend you from sticking with it, but i just cant. with all the things that goes on in the world, its hard to believe someone exists. its even harder to believe when the people that back it up can only offer "have faith" or "the proof is in the bible" as their main argument, where as the other end has more convincing facts.
Well, this is a bit hard to say but here goes..
Personally, I think the world corrects itself in a way. Ever played poker? Someone will go on a winning streak, lets their luck go to their heads, get lots of money, and start using it to bully others. Sometimes they win. But eventually, after a few dozen, hundreds, or thousands of games, their luck will run out. And they'll be struck down very quickly, especially when they go all-in. That's statistics for you. Luck just works that way.
So you see all these injustices in the world.. they're on a winning streak. They think that they can get away with doing it. But in the end, it bites them back. It's what's happening to the US of A. After decades of inflating their worth, their economy just collapsed on itself. And everyone who bet on them is giving up.
It's true. Faith gives money its power. Money is a piece of paper. In the medieval days, if you tried to peddle a piece of paper, people would laugh at you. A king can claim that it's valuable, but if anyone overthrows that king, all that money becomes just a piece of paper.
If everyone just had the guts to do the right thing, the world would be fine. Doing good is to benefit everyone in the world around you. Evil is to benefit only yourself, and damaging the world around you. And from this.. pretty obviously, evil people don't live long. Those powerful empires? The big Mongol empire, the Nazis, didn't last long at all. The big Roman empire, the USSR, both collapsed once people forgot the good behind the original concept and twisted it to their own evil purposes. Unfortunately, the USA seems to be following the same pattern.. and you Americans are trapped in the downward spiral resulting from it. Now if people will just slap themselves and work together, like they did during 9/11, things will be fine. But judging by the chaos from that hurricane (Katrina?), I wish I could be more optimistic about it.
But yeah, they'll get what's coming to them. Jerks on the radio? They'll lose ratings once people get bored. Game companies that rip off players? Most of them, now bankrupt (including that infamous Atari from back then). EA Games looks like it's plummeting too. The companies that do live are the ones that plan 40 years ahead, like logging and mining. Companies that underpay workers.. well, they get what they pay for.
What is sad is that America cares too much about money. It's become well.. a religion to some. Education, health care, all needing money, that's just plain ridiculous. How do you expect your nation to thrive when your best and brightest can't even afford to live, much less to realize their potential?
Well, sorry to say, but you're mostly right. Your nation did, after all, start many immoral wars, donated money and weapons to terrorists, killed hundreds of thousands of innocents in the name of freedom and capitalism, vote for a president who did that (for two consecutive elections), created the military industrial complex (forcing it to survive by peddling war), and much more.
It was just waiting to happen. You should be grateful that you're alive and not being nuked. Things will be better, much better, just hide. And make games about shooting corporate zombies to make yourself feel better
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Peblo Custom ratings must be 50 characters or less
Registered 05/07/2002
Points 185
4th March, 2009 at 19:51:24 -
What, who said it had to be depressing? Almost inspiring, the amount of improvement we have to go. It IS going to get better.
"Isn't it always amazing how we characterize a person's intelligence by how closely their thinking matches ours?"
~Belgarath
Originally Posted by Muz Well, this is a bit hard to say but here goes..
Personally, I think the world corrects itself in a way. Ever played poker? Someone will go on a winning streak, lets their luck go to their heads, get lots of money, and start using it to bully others. Sometimes they win. But eventually, after a few dozen, hundreds, or thousands of games, their luck will run out. And they'll be struck down very quickly, especially when they go all-in. That's statistics for you. Luck just works that way.
So you see all these injustices in the world.. they're on a winning streak. They think that they can get away with doing it. But in the end, it bites them back. It's what's happening to the US of A. After decades of inflating their worth, their economy just collapsed on itself. And everyone who bet on them is giving up.
It's true. Faith gives money its power. Money is a piece of paper. In the medieval days, if you tried to peddle a piece of paper, people would laugh at you. A king can claim that it's valuable, but if anyone overthrows that king, all that money becomes just a piece of paper.
If everyone just had the guts to do the right thing, the world would be fine. Doing good is to benefit everyone in the world around you. Evil is to benefit only yourself, and damaging the world around you. And from this.. pretty obviously, evil people don't live long. Those powerful empires? The big Mongol empire, the Nazis, didn't last long at all. The big Roman empire, the USSR, both collapsed once people forgot the good behind the original concept and twisted it to their own evil purposes. Unfortunately, the USA seems to be following the same pattern.. and you Americans are trapped in the downward spiral resulting from it. Now if people will just slap themselves and work together, like they did during 9/11, things will be fine. But judging by the chaos from that hurricane (Katrina?), I wish I could be more optimistic about it.
But yeah, they'll get what's coming to them. Jerks on the radio? They'll lose ratings once people get bored. Game companies that rip off players? Most of them, now bankrupt (including that infamous Atari from back then). EA Games looks like it's plummeting too. The companies that do live are the ones that plan 40 years ahead, like logging and mining. Companies that underpay workers.. well, they get what they pay for.
What is sad is that America cares too much about money. It's become well.. a religion to some. Education, health care, all needing money, that's just plain ridiculous. How do you expect your nation to thrive when your best and brightest can't even afford to live, much less to realize their potential?
Well, sorry to say, but you're mostly right. Your nation did, after all, start many immoral wars, donated money and weapons to terrorists, killed hundreds of thousands of innocents in the name of freedom and capitalism, vote for a president who did that (for two consecutive elections), created the military industrial complex (forcing it to survive by peddling war), and much more.
It was just waiting to happen. You should be grateful that you're alive and not being nuked. Things will be better, much better, just hide. And make games about shooting corporate zombies to make yourself feel better
now see, youre absolulty right, and you are very intellegent. the only thing is, the way america is going about its domination is somewhat new, so its tough to say which way it will go. sure the economy is "failing" but just talking about it with people they still back our governement and way of life 100%.
but it goes back to see that you are still right because in the grand scheme of things, our life span barely touches the span of time we've been on earth, so we will not be able to see the changes that ensue, and we'll be lucky to see the shift in power in our lifetimes.
Originally Posted by Peblo What, who said it had to be depressing? Almost inspiring, the amount of improvement we have to go. It IS going to get better.
and this is the smartest thing ive heard all day. it's not a good idea to get all bent out of shape about it.
thanks alot guys for your responses, i really am starting to feel good about this.
Totally agree with OMC and with Muz. Most religions do teach the message of peace but it doesnt mean everyone follows them. I dont know about the USA thing though. Obama's taken a huge risk in borrowing such a huge amount of money ($800 billion approx, I think). If his stimulus plan doesnt work, then for sure the country's going to crap. I, personally, dont have much faith in his program but I appreciate that he's trying to do soemthing about the situation. I think he might have gone a little too overboard though. Well, I suppose time will tell.
As for the "evil" doers being punished eventually, wellll, I dont know. The world isnt exactly very fair is it? There is no law of the world that says evildoers will be punished. It's just something we tell ourselves to keep ourselves happy or content. Evildoers or dogooders, whatever happens to them is not because of their morality but because of their choices (moral or immoral). It's not a matter of who's good or who's bad but who's smarter.
Personally, I honestly dont think God interferes with the affairs of the world. He's left the fate of the planet in our hands. Whether we save it or destroy it, is entirely up to us. Why? Well, I think God trusts His creation (the human race) to be capable of doing either. Hence, we have free will. So yeah, I dont think that anything happens for a reason or there's a thing called fate. I think we craft everything for ourselves.
Other than that, with all the wars and bloodshed, you have to understand that men are warmongers. Always have been. Since the dawn of time, since Kain and Abel, men have murdered others. That's just the way things were, are and probably will always be. It's important to also understand the significance of evil, though not very important I suppose. Without evil, one cannot truly understand good. None of us, I think, would have been able to appreciate the good things in life had evil not existed. I think they balance each other out. One is needed for the other.
One final thing. The world isnt and will never be a perfect place. If it was, it would be heaven. Since you only get to live once, do the best with what you've got and appreciate the beauty of life, no matter how tragic it might be.
I'm very happy that this didn't turn into a flame war. Seems the people who contribute here have grown a little and/or been banned.
;__; I love you guys.
I'm not going to elaborate my thoughts on government and who did this and who did that. It would be a needless and stressful waste of energy that I could be using to make games.
i watch the colbert report for all my untainted political viewing
although it is a satire, i find myself agreeing with most of it. a friend once told me i was stupid for taking anything from shows like the daily show and the colbert report as anything other than its face value as a satire. but i strongly disagree. its more of a breath of fresh air from our convoluted world of politics than a joke. if anything it just makes news and politics fun.
Originally Posted by \/\/olf One final thing. The world isnt and will never be a perfect place. If it was, it would be heaven.
i approve of everything you said, but this in my opinion, is an excuse to make people feel bad about being human. the whole argument of humans basically being evil is horrible in my opinion, and is another form of control. if people think that they are supposed to be bad, it makes them feel guilty about doing certian "human" functions. im sorry to use george carlin as a referance, because i dont think hes the best source of quotes, but he happens to be handy and on my mind currently, but if you check out the first video i posted, he starts talking about worshiping the sun and he gets on this point "the sun doesnt tell me im bad or unworthy" or something like that and i honestly think that fact makes me feel better about my life. im sick of tring to follow a god that tells me im wrong, im bad. he chooses to condemn me for his own mistakes and i really think that is a horrible way to look at life.
i want to thank you all for being mature about this. one person told me that you never should talk to anyone about politics, religeon or personal opinions because it leads to fighting. this entire thread proves that there are ways to have different opinions on things and still be calm about it. i really enjoy coming to this website and listening to what everyone has to say.
The thing is that God doesn't tell you you're a horrible person and push you away. Humans are inherently selfish and to a degree, evil. There's no escaping that. The Bible tells us that God longs to forgive us. I know this sounds cheesy, but apparently you've been somewhere where a distorted view of God is taught. I know there are whole denominational arguments and doctrinal crap (part of our ruining of true religion--a relationship with God) but the central view is the same. God isn't condescending. He just wants you to admit when you do something wrong and love Him.
Hebrews 12:11: No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening - it is painful! But afterward there will be a quiet harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way.
Those "certain human functions" (aside from the evil things like murder) were designed by God and meant to be done. Hiding behind the excuse that it's a human function is no reason to do something without moderation and wisdom.
Don't think I'm trying to force anything on you here, I'm just sharing what I can. I don't intend to turn this into a religious discussion either...
One of the many verses that deals with those hypocrites we talked about:
Titus 1:16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Psalm 118:1: Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.
now see, i like hearing what you have to say about it. if more christians were like you i would problably have found a place with them. i still am not convinced, however, that there is a god, but the bible have a good message within it, although i still think that there are alot of hippocritical and contradicting points within it (i apologize for not being able to site specific referances, i had a few i used to have in the back of my head, but ill see if i can dig them up when i have time [off the top of my head there was the fact that the worlds population supposedly came from 2 people, which would warrent the need for incest, although the forefront of the bible does not mention that incest was wrong, it wasnt towards the later section of the bible that condemned the act of incest, which if it were perfectly gods word would be a major contradiction and destroy the entire credability of the bible or be a humanly mistake, which would disprove the fact that the bible is the true word of god]).
i like that verse from titus you cited, im gonna use that one from now on anytime a christian tries to be condecending towards another group of people.
i still cannot get over the fact that god would be willing to damn "his children" for being raised in a culture that does not practice christianity, or children too young to be taught about him (theres the whole baptism thing, but what if its a young child born in a culture with the wrong god?) my father used to use the "sins of the father" argument. i sincerely think that if god really loved us there would be no hell, after all when we ascend to heaven, arent we supposed to be stripped of all our worldly urges? so what would it matter who gets in or not?
the other thing that gets on me is the ten commandments. if god said that the 10 commandments were the only things you needed to follow in order to get into heaven, what is the point of the rest of the bible? why are there other things that god said that is evil, i.e. homosexuality, incest, wealth, whatever? then whats the point of the 10 commandments?
im sorry for listing all my questions, i just feel that if im going to bring this up anywhere it would be here, since eveeryone has been such a good sport about it so far!
"The other thing that gets on me is the ten commandments. if god said that the 10 commandments were the only things you needed to follow in order to get into heaven, what is the point of the rest of the bible?"
This, I think is a bit of a misconception of what Christianity is about. People asked Jesus what the most important commandments were and Jesus said, Love God, and Love others. Everything good tends to fall under those to categorys.
Also its not so much, you HAVE to follow these things or else you'll go to hell. What would the point of Jesus dieyng on the cross be. Rather than being a list of things you must do, it's more things we should do. I don't think anyone could argue that loving others is a bad thing.
It is a good verse from Titus, a nice one to remember.
I'm not well-versed in finding and arguing with and against contradictions in the Bible, so you'll have to forgive me for not knowing all the answers. A long time ago, sometimes people had more than one wife. I don't know when and how that changed, but it wasn't improper then. It could also be that the rules against incest did not apply until the population had grown enough for it to be an impurity. I'm not God, so I don't know what happens to people who aren't taught Christianity, but I have a strong feeling that they are judged on their heart. Not deeds-- their heart. One of the things we are told to do is spread the gospel of Jesus Christ to as many as we can, living our lives in such a way that people notice a good difference. The 10 commandments are known as the old law. When Jesus was born and died, God made a new covenant with his people. Now, that isn't to say that you shouldn't follow the commandments, but they are not what you have to do to get into heaven. The ONLY requirement is that you accept Jesus as your personal savior and ask for forgiveness, and to love God. Following the commandments and the like come naturally out of a desire to do what God wants. The purpose of the Bible is not just for you to get into heaven. While that is a pretty nice prize for hanging on, what God really wants is for you to know him. The other parts of the Bible serve in part to help that and also as a reference for how to live our lives in accordance with God's will.
As for the no-hell thing, think of it like a loving dad. If you disobey, you recieve a punishment. God certainly doesn't want you to go to hell, but with our free will we were given the opportunity to do bad and receive the consequences. When Jesus was sent to die for us, it was an immense gift that took the responsibility off of our shoulders.
I'm not an expert, remember. This is what learning and thinking logically has brought me to believe.
Peblo Custom ratings must be 50 characters or less
Registered 05/07/2002
Points 185
5th March, 2009 at 04:55:48 -
I'm not sure you can conclude that God's love is supposed to be anything but perfect. A human, a loving dad, does not always choose perfect love. You wouldn't be able to logically deduce God would send people to hell, if it existed, unless you said he was human too.
Haha, but if you wanted to create your own hell, you definitely could. It could only be an illusion, but look at the illusion of the world! Holding imaginary standards to sometimes even imaginary things! At least, how I've imagined it.
"Isn't it always amazing how we characterize a person's intelligence by how closely their thinking matches ours?"
~Belgarath
but the main point, OMC, was that if someone has never had the opportunity or possibility to be introduced to the concept of god, then how would they even have the chance to accept god or jesus into their hearts? take for instance the native americans. did god just pay a few visits over there before the eastern civilizations started trickling over, and everyone just ignored them? i remember watching an old interview with george lucas when i was little and the interviewer asked gl about religeon, he stated "i think all religeons are true, they just see different sides of the elephant". i sincerely doubt that if there is a god he would deny access into paradise because someone worshiped a different version of god.
then there is the huge contrast between god in the new and old testament. there was someone i was watching a while ago and he pointed this out to me, that god just seemed like he was all pissed off in the old testament, and in the new testament it was like he mellowed out alot. it really kind of kills the credibility of the book dont you think? its really tough to match the personality of a character if the character isnt yours to begin with, and if god was writing the book through man, then im pretty sure he doesnt know himself too well, or maybe the new testament was written by him, and the old was written by one of his critics.
there was another george carlin act, it mightve been from the same show, but i watched it a while ago, and he was talking about the bill of rights. he asked the question, "where did these rights come from" oh yeah, from god "here we go again". but he starts saying that if god was really looking out for you (really), he wouldve given everyone the right to a roof over their head, and a right to food everyday. that i think is a very good point (sorry for all the gc referances, i really have to start digging up better sources), and its a shame that there is supposedly a god that is looking out for mankind, loving them and letting millions of people go hungry.
then there is the divine plan which confuses me? if everything is already laid out and god has pre-determined everything, then why did he plan on people going to hell? it really sounds like hes a great big jerk, and no different than any politician that sends hundreds of thousands of soldiers to their death for his own benefit. does god have a contract with amercia to take 50% of its oil as an offering?
bah. im getting way out of hand with these questions. sorry
I really wish I had a good answer for your questions. This sort of stuff used to really bother me but now, I pretty much just ignore it (sort of an ignorance is bliss thing). There really isn't anything any of us can do about the way the world is, aside from smile and live our daily lives as peacefully and as generously as we can. Or at least, that's what Ive come to believe.
but you cant just ignore thigns like that, thats why im asking. if its something important to you, such as how you live your life and treat others, youve got to be sure of it... thats the prime example behind faith, and its an excuse to be happy without concrete knowledge. if it bothers you dont just ignore it, look into it and find the answer. if god is there he will guide you to the right answer, and if hes not, well, youll find what ive found.
im not saying that you arent a peaceful person, and thats fine, if it makes you happy thats all that needs to matter, and im sure neither of you are like those christians that tries to beat down a group of people for not agreeing with you, and i can tell because you guys arent flaming me, youre being honest and i like that.
bringing the conversation back to the original aspect, honestly i feel that the presence of religeon in society greatly inpacts the restraint that the power has over us as humans. some of those quotes in the second video are great examples of this like napolean "religeon is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich" or who ever said "religeon is reguarded by the uneducated as true, the wise as false and the rulers as useful".
our leaders want us to believe that society cannot function without religeon, without government. i think the first quote on that video was a perfect example, "if we all live in fear of punishment, and hope for a reward than we are a sorry lot indeed". all throughout the world, public school has been an excellent tool to get people towards their particular country. we have things for kids like santa claus or the crap that kids watch nowadays, and all sorts of stuff and if you look at it really hard, its actually kind of sick. i was watching air force one again not too long ago, and it was kind of funny to actually see some of the underlying messages within it. the whole movie it seemed to have this "pro-american" president is the greatest man in the world kind of image, but if you watch what some of the terrorists say in the movie, it really looks like someone threw in a few hidden messages. for instance, when the lead terrorist is trying to get the president to make the call and he makes the comparison between him and the president saying that they do the same thing, just because the president does it in a suit and with a smart bomb doesnt make him different or something like that.
i like movies like that. another good one is red dawn. cuba invades america, a couple of kids fight them to the death. if youve ever played the game freedom fighters, its another great example, and it has those nice little news reports between levels, and is a great example of how the people in iraq must feel. im sure the majority of the people that watched red dawn, or played freedom fighters never got the point that it was trying to get across is that these people in iraq, are defending their homeland from what they believe are invaders (which really is all that we are), and all across the news these people are plastered as "terrorists" and "criminals". its the most obvious thing, but its beat into our heads so many times, it really sucks to call home and have my parents say things like "bush kept us safe from the terrorists".
eh, i kind of trailed on a bit there. i keep doing that, but hey, its nice to come on here and vent out my mind and see what everyone has to say about it.
I already addressed that-- if someone has not been introduced to Christ, he is probably judged on his heart. Whether he is a good man or not. Not on his deeds, because then it would be impossible. Accepting Christ is almost like a free ticket into heaven, but if you are truly serious about it you'll do more than just pretend you are a Christian. Faith without works and all that. In the Old Testament, God was more stern in a way, but it was to protect his people. I'm not a Biblical scholar, but after having read and been read to out of the Bible for so long, you start to get a picture. For instance, in the old testament you were not allowed to eat unclean meat. This was for hygienic reasons mostly! With the new law some old traditions were no longer needed. The Bible says that God is a jealous God, which means He doesn't want you to worship any other god or idol. It's the same now, but since we have Jesus we don't have to go through rituals and we have a gateway to God.
John 14:6: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
The New Testament also focuses on the life of Jesus, while the Old Testament was about history and psalms and judges. The New Testament by its very nature assumes a more lenient disposition-- it's the message of God's forgiveness.
Hebrews 13:8: Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
When God was stern with his people, it was because they were severely acting up. They were His chosen people, and were worshipping idols and commiting adultery left and right. They did not listen to Him, so He let them be overrun and directionless occasionally. We are all offered freedom through Jesus, and a choice to follow Him. (provided that we know about Him)
The existence of homeless and foodless people is also man's fault. The garden of Eden had all the food in the world that we needed. When sin was committed, we had to work for our own food and take the welfare of our family as our own responsibility. He certainly doesn't want those people to starve. O_o God works in the world through His people, so in the end, if we would actually listen, all would be good. You aren't going to get every single person on earth to do what God wants, so poverty and corrupt government will always be here.
Haha, a big jerk eh? I guess he could have just not created you. Would that be nice? When you blame hell on God, you're doing exactly that--blaming it on God. Whether you go to hell or not is ultimately your own choice once you've learned about Christ. And even if you don't know, you still make your choices.
Before you quote Napoleon, remember he was a murderous nut. I would hardly conclude that "religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich" is a good quote.
That quote you have about fearing punishment--that's exactly the opposite of what it's supposed to be. First John 4:18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
I'm not going to comment on any wars. I'm trying not to be preachy here. I guess it kind of sounds like it, but I'm just trying to address your questions.
What it means to be a Christian has reeaaaally been distorted over the years. People have seen the pretenders and the abusers of power and have drawn conclusions that get stretched even further. Even people with good intentions can have beliefs about God that make me go, "Whaa? O_o" (And again, I know about doctrinal differences. These are things universal to all denominations)
Also-- with what Ricky said... Sometimes (for me at least) when you have a bigger picture than some from studying and believing, things make sense in your head, and then it's hard to put into words once you have to explain it to someone else. It is a plague of the mind for many people, not just Christians.
The fact alone that we feel the need for ethics seems proof enough for me of God. If we were a survival-of-the-fittest type deal, why would we feel the need to be kind to others unless the need were placed in us by a Creator? But, that is another discussion altogether, which I don't have the time to get into.
the first part confused me, because when you said it before you said that same thing, but then you came back and when you were talking about the 10 commandments you said the only thing that mattered if they excepted jesus into their heart... but then if the rules dont apply to some, why should it apply at all? i mean, if i basically live my life as a good person, but i had ample time to get to know god, then do i go to hell?
as far as the stern god goes, that actually makes sense, and that is a good explaniation. im going to try and re-read the bible when i get a chance and keep note of it, so im not just taking your word for it, and everyone elses word for it as well.
i still think the whole aspect of homelessness being mans fault is a terrible outlook. there are plenty of good people that are homeless, there are going hungry in third world countries because their leaders made bad deal (well bad for the country, good for them). you make it kind of sound like god is punishing the people for the actions of their leaders? im sure he certainly doesnt want them to starve if hes up there, but he certainly will let them.
well, the next thing is more for people that actually believe, and since i dont believe, i believe i was created by my parents, but meh, that one is up in the air i guess, not really much more either of us can say about it.
yeah i meant that quote was a good quote as a demonstration of how leaders look at their people, and napolean is a perfect example of how most leaders (while either out and the open or too them selves) look at religeon and their people.
im confused on the next one, sorry. i is a dumbass
no, youre not being preachy, im actually learning alot here. its nice to think and all by yourself, but if you cannot bang heads with someone whats the point?
as far as a distorted view of christianity goes, well i think it comes mostly from the 100 of different versions and "updates" to the bible. its literally impossible to get the right idea about the bible based on whats floating around now, and so much stuff couldve just been "thrown in". that could be an excuse to play the faith card, but i think that if god was looking out for his word, no one would be able to touch it.
i know what its like to not be able to explain certain things, but thats mostly when it comes to applications and technical stuff i dont have a full understanding about. its hard for me to think about that from a belief standpoint. i find it hard to think anyone could believe in something that they question, i find it much easier to answer those questions from the other end, not when ive tricked my mind into constantly thinking something is true.
ethics is not a proof of god in my opinion, ethics is a product of our socity, and i dont think it ever started comming into practice until governments started forming and stuff. people only want ethics because in this materialistic society, no one wants to end up with no money, no stuff, or heck, end up dead. there are people that believe in survival of the fittest, does god not exist in their world?
eh, well. haha. i always start these with the intention of just a few quick sentences, but somehow i start getting more questions!
Those laws are still things you should follow-- but if you break one you don't go to hell. The point was a reply to your question as to why there was more to the Bible than just the 10 commandments. I don't judge people's souls, so I don't know exactly how God does it. But he is a just God and will do so accordingly.
God is not punishing them. If God made everyone equally wealthy and controlled everything so that it was perfect, we wouldn't have free will, would we? It's ultimately up to us to solve homelessness and poverty, instead of blaming its existence on God. He gave us a choice, and we choose. Some may suffer because of the actions of others, but that is by no means punishment from God. It's all the more reason for people to get their act together and do what He wants us to do! If you don't believe in God, how can you blame homelessness on Him? Who else would it be but man?
I don't get your point about Napoleon. O_o
I agree on the "banging heads" thing! By asking these questions, you've made me put things into words.
New versions are usually just re-translations from the original Greek and Hebrew into modern language. They usually don't have an effect on the central messages though, especially since scholars all over the world study them carefully. Now, personal translations of certain passages do sometimes conflict, but I don't think that is as big a player in the distortion of Christianity as it might seem.
I didn't mean people who question what they believe--quite the opposite. I meant people who fully understand it (as far as possible, anyway) but don't have the gift of putting it into words well.
Ethics is a product of our society... how did we start societies if we killed each other beforehand? We just arbitrarily decided to start order and put rules of behavior into effect? Sounds ethical to me. I had a train of thought to put here, but I have a dentist appointment I'm about to hurry off to and forgot what it was.
"And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth."
There's a lot of violence in the world these days. God knew, though, that the best way to end violence is to kill every living thing.
Don't think of it as the everyday form of jealousy. You know, pooched-lip sulky thing.
BTW, the "seven deadly sins" aren't in the Bible. They are warned against in different parts, but nowhere are they referred to together as "deadly sins". That's a catholic addition that you could remedy by buying pardons.
I disagree.
For example, God being jealous of any other god you might be worshiping is exactly the same thing as you being jealous of the guy who is dating your ex-girlfriend that you still have feelings for.
It's similar-- but think of it more as a married man. If you're jealous of something someone else has, it is a sin. If you are jealous of something that belongs to you but is not given to you, it is not a sin. A married man has a right to be jealous if another man is flirting with his wife. God is jealous of worship that is given to another even though it belongs to Him.
I hardly think God would stick His lower lip out and pout though.
I think it's a fairly diferent thing because imo nobody belongs to God, unless you've gone through baptism and/or any other catholic ritual that would make you christian, but in that case by worshiping another god you'd be switching religions (divorce). But in case you weren't christian or "divorced", you could be flirting with whoever you wanted because you are single so you belong to no one. In that case if someone is jealous of whoever you are flirting with, that someone is sinning because he's jealous of something someone has/is close to getting.
Sorry if i didn't explained myself well, I'm really sleepy right now
I used to think about stuff like this all the time. Like literally all the time. The pointlessness of civilisation, of government, of anything really. It got me quite down for a while.
Then I just thought that as long as I'm okay, and the people around me are okay - nothing else matters. So some fellas in Africa are dying while some fellas in America give themselves $500k pensions; what can you do? Nothing. Don't feel guilty for the world. If everyone was content with life and lived on enough food, water, medical assistence, the world would be a utopia. But it's not. Let those who take more than they need feel bad.
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6th March, 2009 at 01:36:48 -
Agreed. Don't feel guilty over anything. If you aren't happy about something, change it. If you are happy now though, there is absolutely no reason to change what you believe or what you are doing. I suppose levels of happiness go up to infinity, reason enough to keep changing.
"Isn't it always amazing how we characterize a person's intelligence by how closely their thinking matches ours?"
~Belgarath
Originally Posted by Boothman I used to think about stuff like this all the time. Like literally all the time. The pointlessness of civilisation, of government, of anything really. It got me quite down for a while.
Then I just thought that as long as I'm okay, and the people around me are okay - nothing else matters. So some fellas in Africa are dying while some fellas in America give themselves $500k pensions; what can you do? Nothing. Don't feel guilty for the world. If everyone was content with life and lived on enough food, water, medical assistence, the world would be a utopia. But it's not. Let those who take more than they need feel bad.
tl;dr - Don't give a shit. It's not worth it.
as terrible as that sounds, it make total sense. i feel kind of like a hyppocrate, now that i think about. all this talk about "control" when worrying about it is nothing more than a simple control issue.
Humanity is constantly moving towards a new telos, one of which is ever changing. It's dynamics (what's going on in present times) may suck balls, particularly since almost all advancement is through conflict and struggle; sometimes we move back a step instead (IE the Dark Ages). It is through education, I believe, we can come to mutually recognize each other (human to human, perhaps one day to the animals we share the planet with also). The world right now is in a sore state of affairs yes, but it is perpetual. Meaning that reason-ability and unity, for the most part, arises out of conflict and our standards for living will slowly (or drastically) increase as well.
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Only thing to do is keep your head up and do what you know is right.
But I haven't let other stupid people deter me in my pursuit of Christ. My family was kicked out of our church because of one liar! I know firsthand the effects that a deceitful man who hides under a shroud of being a "Christian" can have, and I still have faith. It is one of my mottos to ignore the stupidity but help the stupid. 
Edited by OMC
I don't intend to turn this into a religious discussion either...
The purpose of the Bible is not just for you to get into heaven. While that is a pretty nice prize for hanging on, what God really wants is for you to know him. The other parts of the Bible serve in part to help that and also as a reference for how to live our lives in accordance with God's will. 
I really wish I had a good answer for your questions. This sort of stuff used to really bother me but now, I pretty much just ignore it (sort of an ignorance is bliss thing). There really isn't anything any of us can do about the way the world is, aside from smile and live our daily lives as peacefully and as generously as we can. Or at least, that's what Ive come to believe.
