since im taking such a liking to making games i thought id try to get some books at the public liberary. i got a few generic game design books, but then i figured id read up again on some programming languages, but theres on thing i really didnt ask anyone before was what the heck is the difference between like C#, C(dubbaplus), C and all of them? i got a book on C# because thats what i used before, but anyone have a clue on this?
C++ and C# are object-oriented programming, while C is not. They are a tad easier to deal with. C++ Is probably the most powerful, but C# is Microsoft's .NET IDE, if I remember correctly... (I could be wrong. ) and it's a bit easier. Many people I know recommend C# as a first language, especially since it's free.
one of the books i got was windows game programming for dummies, and it uses C++ in its tutorials, so i think im gonna stick with C++ and take back the C# book. i might try to learn the other ones later just so i know, but id like to get started with one of them, and since C++ is powerful and easy, and the book is really easy to read, ill stick with it.
i would not recommend any of the "___ for dummies" books.
if youre serious about c++ i would recommend "c++ primer plus" as a starting book.
if youre serious about games in c++ would recommend sdl, allegro, directx, and opengl, sdk's
you can use windows GDI or GDI+ for graphics in windows but its not really recommended for serious game programming
"beggining game programming" is a directx 9 book and
"game programming all in one" is an allegro book.
i would suggest keeping that C# book. C# will continue to grow and already has many advantages over C++ albeit slightly newer and more complicated (based on Object oriented syntax of c++ and influenced heavily by java). the xbox's XNA Game Studio sdk is for C#.
Originally Posted by OldManClayton C++ and C# are object-oriented programming, while C is not. They are a tad easier to deal with. C++ Is probably the most powerful, but C# is Microsoft's .NET IDE, if I remember correctly... (I could be wrong. ) and it's a bit easier. Many people I know recommend C# as a first language, especially since it's free.
i'd like to add to this that microsoft delivers a complete suite of programming tools free of charge based on their powerful (and expensive) "Microsoft Visual Studio 2008" called MSV 2008 Express, which is made up of 4 individual IDE's. C++, C#, Visual Basic, and Visual Web Developer.
well then, you have made a very convincing argument, i might as well stick with C# then, maybe start working on things in XNA. the dummy book is starting to jump around too much already, and i just red that it wants me to start off reading an actual C++ book (go figure).
haha i was arguing for c++. im just saying dont disregard c#. it has lots of potential.
im a primary c++ user and know next to nothing of C#. i dont have an xbox360 so making games with xna is kind of pointless for me.
if youre looking for a starting point i would personally go with C++, or even something simpler like Basic, Python, perl. i could talk and recommend book after book, and resource after resource but i think ill just say...
lol, okay, ill start by getting a better book. i wish i started this topic before i went to the library, it was kind of a spur of the moment thing. i do think i might like starting with C#, mostly for the XNA (i think it'd be much more impressive to my friends if they saw my stuff on Xbox, heck, id be impressed) i have no problem jumping into things, and like i said before ive already got a start on C# (not much, problably more generic stuff that could be easily interchangable between the languages i dont know what the hell im talking about so ill shut up).
so in conclusion, i think ill get a new book for C++, but in the mean time, ill start reading this C# book.
Well, since you're making games, not software.. I'd just like to point out that MMF2 works better. I think almost all of us have moved into the C languages at one point, because it's trendy, but really, it's only good if you want to make something that doesn't have graphics.
Personally, for game making, I'd recommend learning Lua. Then combine it with MMF2. It's amazing how much power those two have put together. Also, Lua's a good scripting language, if you want to make online games, MUDs, MU*es, even mod some MMORPGs, a lot of them use Lua.
But yeah, go ahead, learn C# or C++, it helps a lot more if you want to get a job with it.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
well yeah, thats the point. like hell i want to be working at dennys the rest of my life, and ive been reading up on different carrers in game design and it seems like no matter what you do, unless your a sound guy or ~!@ART, then you have to at least know a little bit of coding. granted i dont think i want to mainly code, id still like to know it so it looks good on my resume and if i dont get a job at least i can independantly do some stuff in my spare time, and god knows i have waaaay to much of that.
reguardless of that i really do like MMF2, im at least going to finish a few projects with it before i get totally serious about moving forward into the more technical portion of my journey. what exactly is lua? and an MUD or MU*es?
Originally Posted by Muz Well, since you're making games, not software.. I'd just like to point out that MMF2 works better. I think almost all of us have moved into the C languages at one point, because it's trendy, but really, it's only good if you want to make something that doesn't have graphics.
Personally, for game making, I'd recommend learning Lua. Then combine it with MMF2. It's amazing how much power those two have put together. Also, Lua's a good scripting language, if you want to make online games, MUDs, MU*es, even mod some MMORPGs, a lot of them use Lua.
But yeah, go ahead, learn C# or C++, it helps a lot more if you want to get a job with it.
you cant rely on mmf forever. if youre like me, i dont want to be stuck doing 2d games. theres tons of coding tools and engines to get the job done quickly. look at what some people are doing in what is a faster development time than most proffesional quality mmf'ers are doing.
Lua: http://www.lua.org/
It's another programming language.. IMHO, one of the easiest ones to use, and like MMF, it's designed to still work even though you code it badly.
MUD is one of those online, multiplayer text-based RPGs. Well, there's a whole bunch of them based on different codebases, MOOs, MUSHes, etc, so people just call the whole genre a MU*, which means multiplayer text-based RPG.
@cecil: Hah, nothing wrong with 2D games. Whatever pays more, I guess. You can do all kinds of things with MMF with a little creativity. That steve guy's making a bit of money off it
Edited by Muz
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
i dont have a problem with 2D or 3D, a good game is a good game, it doesnt need top of the line gfx to impress me. thats why i dont get along with heavily story based games like final fantasy, id rather watch a movie IMO. it could look like the most lifelike thing, but if i couldnt do anything with it, whats the point?
i might venture into lua + mmf2, but i want to at least get something done that i could use to grab someones attention, and unfortunatly it seems like most stuff needs to at least be done in 3d.
im making some good progress in this C# book. i downloaded visual C# express, and mixed with the previous workings with it and my work with MMF2, im really starting to get it alot easier now. im in invincible mode, so im gonna keep on trekkin and see where it brings me. this compiler is alot easier to use aswell, unlike the one i had to run through the cmd prompt before, i like how everything is hilighted and stuff too, that really helps.
C, C++ = Games programmed in these languages can be made to work on most platforms (Windows, Linux etc.)
C# = Windows only, but it's a really nice programming language.
Personally I prefer programming games in a real programming language. I feel like I have more control doing so, but it's much harder to do than doing it in MMF.
I'd say, go with what works for you. Learning to do it in a real programming language will take a long time, especially if you expect the same results as you get in MMF. So if you're ok with the fact that there might be a long time between results compared to using MMF, and you still have a genuine interest in it - go for it.
I haven't tried programming real games in C# yet, but I have gotten some results using C++ with the addon package Allegro, so if you decide to go with this I might be able to help
yeah im already finding out how much more control ill have, because MMF2 seems to only work with if statements. using these languages i get to play with the else statements, switch statements, and all kinds of different styles of loops.
its already starting to look very simple, its just learning the actual wording of the language. I only made it through 68 pages last night, but thats because im trying to get a full grasp of things and doing the tutorials, but it still feels like everything is kind of coming naturally.
i might stick with c# untill i get through a few books, but i might go and start learning C++ then afterwards. what exactly is Allegro, cecil said it was a book? confused
Allegro is a so called Library. Basically a bunch of functions that you can use in your project. For example, Allegro makes it so you don't have to program the routines that do the actual drawing of graphics on the screen - you just have to tell it what and where to draw.
You might want to start with C++ when it comes to learning though. C# can be a bit overwhelming if you don't have concepts like object oriented programming and such under control. But when you finally get to know C# it's really nice
i said allegro was an sdk and i mentioned a book (books are really where you should start. learning the theory, proper useage, syntax, etc while learning first hand by doing examples) that was about using it. an sdk is a system developer kit. allegro doesnt really fall under that and is more technically just a game and media "library".
Does anybody else think Ms. Chloecakes is Phizzy's alt?
I don't know why, haha. (No offense).
Visual Basic was really fun to learn and it's also object-oriented programming but there were a lot of limitations I found while using it. This was version 6, I don't know if they've updated it or not yet. I'd recommend trying out a language because I find although my knowledge of that stuff is outdated nowadays the basis for doing certain things for games is still the same. So if you spend enough time figuring out how to accomplish tasks using VB6 you can pretty much apply similar methods elsewhere.
One big challenge I had before was trying to create the object arrays I'd used extensively with VB6 over to MMF1.5. You can work around it, but it was pretty hard. Plus I'm sure the coding was sloppy as all hell.
Hmmmm, what was I talking about again?
--
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"To be a true ninja you must first pick the most stealthy of our assorted combat suits. Might I suggest the bright neon orange?"
DXF Games, coming next: Hasslevania 2- This Space for Rent!
Originally Posted by Muz Lua: http://www.lua.org/
MUD is one of those online, multiplayer text-based RPGs.
Damn, I remember in the early 90's I tried this text-only game called Rivers of MUD. It was the basically the first online experience I'd ever had where you could play with hundreds of other people at once. It was pretty cool to say the least, fastest 5 hours ever spent.
--
"Del Duio has received 0 trophies. Click here to see them all."
"To be a true ninja you must first pick the most stealthy of our assorted combat suits. Might I suggest the bright neon orange?"
DXF Games, coming next: Hasslevania 2- This Space for Rent!
alright, so after reading a bit through the C# book ("programming C#" by jesse liberty), i noticed the subjects kind of bounced around, the book was horrible, it threw in topics that they had not gone over, and put in code that had not even taught. it was like they pointed out some random code that did something, and they were all like "well this was supposed to do this, and heres a terrible explaination that will confuse the hell out of you, but worry about that later" how the hell am i not supposed to worry? the code im practicing is based largely on the knowledge of this code.
so rather than bounce around and confuse myself more, i picked up a C++ book at the liberary ("C++ programming fundamentals" by chuck easttom) i wouldve picked up some of the books you guys listed but they had a poor selection of C++ books, but this book is actually very good. ive made it to chapter six so far and it reads really easy, but im understanding the topics covered in the C# book alot easier with this one. sure i like the syntax a bit better with C#, but this book does a good job of explaining things in an understanding way, and it includes a summary and test at the end of each chapter, which brings up another point. the C# book crams 50 different subjects into each chapter, while this book keeps the subjects down to a few each chapter. on top of that, it also has a few chapters at the back of the book for industry specific examples, one of which is a simple game which im interested in progressing too, and maybe when i finish it, ill post it up on the forums here (ill be sure to add my own personal touch to it).
im taking this one chapter at a time, so wish me luck guys! and thanks for all your help!
you can find a lot of good books in used condition for cheap on amazon. i got my "windows sockets network programming" book for like $4. used books usually range from the obscenely low priced like that one to about $40 to $50 max. havent looked yet but ebay should be a good market for getting really cheap books.
Originally Posted by miss chloecakes alright, so after reading a bit through the C# book ("programming C#" by jesse liberty), i noticed the subjects kind of bounced around, the book was horrible, it threw in topics that they had not gone over, and put in code that had not even taught. it was like they pointed out some random code that did something, and they were all like "well this was supposed to do this, and heres a terrible explaination that will confuse the hell out of you, but worry about that later" how the hell am i not supposed to worry? the code im practicing is based largely on the knowledge of this code.
Lol, the tougher the subject, the more it bounces around. Ironically, sometimes the best books bounce around the most. But yeah, you have to pick one that's at your level. No point on focusing on something you can't handle.
Edited by Muz
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
oh yeah, totally. im sure if i go through the C# book now, i can get a bit further, and im sure id have to stop again and read something else that explains it better, but all in all im getting a good grasp of things.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
C, C++ and C# are all good candidates for programming games however in general terms /all/ of them are pretty bad first languages, for a first language, most people reccomend python (can't say more, I have little to no experience in it myself), Perl (same again), Ruby (the new RPGMakers scripting system is based on Ruby, and it is pretty powerful) and other such semi-interpretted languages. Personally, I think if you get some experience with clickteam's products you'll also gain quite an insight into how game programming works in just about any language, the only exceptions being the actual rendering, taking input, and dealing with image and sound files; in other words: the really hard parts.
Others have mentioned Allegro, which is (iirc) a directX based game library, removing the difficulty of the harder parts that I mentioned, however when I tried to use it myself, I didn't get along with it, though that may have beeen due to lack of experience at the time. You can of course tinker with the directX SDK directly, which is still pretty powerful, but dealing with filetypes will then become quite painful, though I'm sure that there are many extension libraries that could aid you with that. As far as I know, directX SDK and allegro work with C, C++ and C# equally well.
If you are really into your open source, or would at least like to see your games running on linux, then i reccomend using OpenGL, which while it lacks a little in power compared to directX, I've found it to be a hell of a lot easier to use, as long as you don't touch the GLUT, which removes most of your event flow control, even if it does handle some of the more rediculous OS specifics of using openGL.
Just to get where I'm finally going: I would reccomend openGL with a library called SDL (Simple DirectMedia Layer) or even SDL on its own, though that can't be hardware accellerated. SDL neatly deals with creating a screen context to draw to, keyboard, mouse, joystick, and has extensions for network and advanced image handling (where advanced is anything other bitmaps), and the main selling point, it works in C, C++ and /as far as i know/ C#.
As a small aside: C# does work on linux, through a project called Mono, though it lacks the same level of support (no XNA, XNA is a pretty good bet for game making as well)
Reccomended reading: K&R2, aka The C programming language, 2nd edition by Kernighan and Ritchie.
for openGL, there are the openGL Red Book (practically a learning/tutorial book) and Blue Book (reference manual), both available online, as an old edition.
"Others have mentioned Allegro, which is (iirc) a directX based game library, removing the difficulty of the harder parts that I mentioned, however when I tried to use it myself, I didn't get along with it, though that may have beeen due to lack of experience at the time."
your iirc is wrong. it is not directx based. if iirc it is a wrapper library. when compiled on a windows platform it uses directx. when on a linux or unix like platform it uses opengl. and etc etc on other platforms. which is how it is portable. if it was directx based it would be limited to only windows.
"If you are really into your open source, or would at least like to see your games running on linux, then i reccomend using OpenGL, which while it lacks a little in power compared to directX, I've found it to be a hell of a lot easier to use, as long as you don't touch the GLUT, which removes most of your event flow control, even if it does handle some of the more rediculous OS specifics of using openGL."
or you can use allegroGL wich makes it even easier. or even SDL's openGL capabilities.
"Just to get where I'm finally going: I would reccomend openGL with a library called SDL (Simple DirectMedia Layer) or even SDL on its own, though that can't be hardware accellerated. SDL neatly deals with creating a screen context to draw to, keyboard, mouse, joystick, and has extensions for network and advanced image handling (where advanced is anything other bitmaps), and the main selling point, it works in C, C++ and /as far as i know/ C#."
its funny as i just replied to the other post saying NOT to use sdl if you have the choice between sdl and allegro. sdl is not as easy and not nearly as neat and tidy as allegro. limited built in sound capabilites (SDL_Audio. for the real good stuff you'll have to use the addon library SDL_Mixer), no built in routines for primitives, no high level video functions (have to use the structs and functions given to actually build your own complete routines), no built in text routines (have to code your own bitmap routines for bitmap fonts, or use SDL_ttf addon library for use TrueType Fonts and drawing text to a surface). if you arent concerned with super portability use allegro. its portable enough (windows, mac os, linux, unix, BeOS, etc). sdl is even more portable at the expenses i just listed.
"You can of course tinker with the directX SDK directly, which is still pretty powerful, but dealing with filetypes will then become quite painful, though I'm sure that there are many extension libraries that could aid you with that."
i would strongly suggest that directx ONLY be used to tinker. no one should ever dream of using directx when there are better options. use a library that uses directx but using directx plain is horrid. its extremely unportable, and a monstrosity of a thing to code with.
I stand corrected. As I said, its a very long time since I looked at allegro, and I had forgotten entirely about allegroGL. As for the lack of high level primitives, you are of course correct, and those primitives are very useful for someone using a 'true' programming language to make a game the first time round, however in the past I've found such systems too restrictive (I admit, I'm speaking in general terms here, its been too long since I've tried any such library to give an example) hence my current project to code a set which are to my own liking. I accept that my liking != all other peoples, but you never know, someone might find the work I do interesting.
I think I'm going to have to go take another look at Allegro to see how much it has changed (or at least, my opinion of it has changed) since I last used it.
Also: chill dude, I don't consider my opinions fact on any level, and nobody is perfect
you are right. sdl being so low level it gives you a lot more freedom to make everything how YOU want it. except it kind of defeats the purpose of being a media library. imo anyway.
i find its title highly ironic. SIMPLE directmedia layer, it being one of the more complicated libraries to use for games n such
Maybe the simple is not to imply it is simple to use, but that it in itself, is simple. You gotta admit: its the truth
I'm a bit of a control freak when it comes to programming, I loath using libraries for *anything* that I believe I can program for myself (I've written image loaders for just that reason, it was... boring[and aducational]) because of this, when I /do/ accede to using a library, I only want it to take control away from me for as far as it has to to get what I want done. SDL is perfect for this for me. *shrugs*
When I finish my university course I'm intending to become either a low level programmer, or a game engine programmer, so I feel its useful for me to learn everything I can which is related to this.
@miss chloecakes: best reccomendation is pick something pretty simple (say graphical tic-tac-toe) and code it in a bunch of different languages, with a bunch of different libraries. which one you like the best will soon become apparent, so get some experience in that, *then* think about what the big shots are using, and port your knowledge
If I had to choose between C# and Java I would pick Java any day. Getting things to run cross-platform is a pain with anything Microsoft. Ok sure you get some shiny tools to use but actually Java has more potential since you can write applications for the majority of devices, (like mobile phone games on the J2ME platform) and you can embed applications into webpages.
lol, Eric, what are you doing on a Click site if you like low-level programming? Klik is as high as it gets
A bit hard to get a job as one, though. It's pretty darn obsolete, though i suppose if u took electrical engineering, you could do some Assembly on microprossesors (the fat 8051s and stuff).
professional game programming is muhc tougher than it looks though, have to deal with thins like 3D vectors and stuff. I suppose mobile phones and portable game systemsar e quite low level too.
Edited by Muz
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Muz: aside from the very early stuff I did in various incarnations of BASIC most of my early 'programming' experience is from klik products (and the RPG maker series) so I still have a soft spot for them, and this sit. Even now, MMF2 is damn useful for knocking an idea in to shape at high speed, which is often a good idea if you have an idea that may *or may not* be fun in actuality.
As for low level, I'd rather avoid ASM as it's a pain in the ass, but I enjoy working in C and C++. All the maths involved in 3-D stuff is slightly daunting, but I'm studying maths at university, so I'm not exactly worried about it As for jobs in the games industry, they exist. I've had a few friends recently getting interviews with codemasters amongst other companies, and I know the lead programmer of a local game studio (a slightly sucky one, but never the less) who said they often want to pick up a new junior programmer. I figure I'll be all set when I'm ready to go.
I recommend C++, OpenGL and wxWidgets if you want your game to look nice across different platforms. wxWidgets is well organised and easy to use. You might want Orge3D for fast 3D graphics, and Blender/GIMP to create those graphics.
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They are a tad easier to deal with. C++ Is probably the most powerful, but C# is Microsoft's .NET IDE, if I remember correctly... (I could be wrong. 
) and it's a bit easier. Many people I know recommend C# as a first language, especially since it's free. 
Edited by Cecilectomy
