The previous competition died and you know what? It had a few flaws. Nobody chose one of the two formats, which kind of defeated part of the point. So this time lets just have one format. Ive written out a few rules so i'll post them here.
Once again we can discuss any changes, It would be better to vote for anything instead of asking me. It's all open for change ok?
Also I know there are a lot of competitions already but If I wait other people will just keep making new competitions wont they? And i'll never get around to it lol.
Misc graphics, no limits on objects but no transparency as standard. 1 layer only unless the layers perk is chosen, however tricks can acheive 'fake' parallax.
Sound
4 channel mod or midi (sound effects can be wav or ogg or whatever)
Game storage/Filesize = Cartridge up to 4 megabytes (anything under 2mb gets +5 points*)
Controller = 8 way directional pad + 2 buttons (two controller ports as standard)
Perks = addtional hardware inside each cartridge to add more power to the console (Choose one or choose none)
1 = 64 colours + transparency enabled.
2 = 8 channel music
3 = Ogg, Mp3 or Wav support
4 = mode 7, parallaxer, perspective or any other graphical Extension.
5 = layers enabled
6 = 8mb super cart
7 = up to 4 buttons (or mouse + keyboard support) + more than 2 controllers
8 = rotation + scale
Additional perk = you can choose to license an IP from another company at the cost of 5 points, basically if you make a fangame you lose 5 points*. You can still choose one of the other perks. Using other clickers' characters characters or IP but using your own characeter wont of course. (but don't forget to ask anyone for permission!)
Note* When i write about points i'm referring to the review score but i'm just assuming it would be a percentage.
I think it's nowhere near limiting enough - most of the games on this site would be eligible for submission already.
I'd suggest simplifying the rules to something like this...
Graphics:
Specified resolution (320x240?).
Choose one of a several specified 16-color(?) palettes.
No transparency, alpha channels, scaling, rotation, layers etc.
Yeah, i see the point in the limitations but... i dunno, i feel that it needs to be interesting.
320x240 and 16 colours and nothing else just doesn't seem interesting.
Ok we need something to make the particular console interesting. Double pixel width or colour attributes.
I guess we could go for a REALLY old early 80's system like the Zx spectrum and really make the developers work lol.
I really liked the idea they had at Pixelation, of remaking a modern game, but making it look as it would on a Gameboy.
They only did mockups, but we could do actual playable games...
The thread is here: http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=5016.0
I just... don't think that will work.
I would really hate the idea of just making a Gameboy game.
The plan is to make a unique set of specifications/limitations for a fake console/computer then make games for it. Mimicking a real console is defeating part of the whole idea.
Someone should set up some kind of behavior object for anyone to place in their game, that automatically decreases the frame rate of the game after you hit so many objects on screen at once. I'm not sure the technical aspect behind this, but for some reason a Sonic game never quite felt like a Sonic game unless the frame rate dipped below 15FPS with over 50 rings flying around the screen instantly.
Davince gave me a good idea yesterday. A limited amount of space for background tiles and sprites. So we could draw up a grid to fill with tiles and perhaps vary it's size depending on what colour mode or resolutions (assuming there will be more than one screen mode)
Your idea sounds good Brandon, but it might be a problem for anyone that isn't using TGF2 or MMF2.
I liked the idea of having two consoles to choose from. Imo, the problem is that they where way too unequal last time. If they were to seem like possible competitors and offer different but equivalent features, then I'm sure both would be chosen equaly. I also don't think limitations alone are enough to make your competition appealing. The console(s) would need to have some story/theme, and maybe even a "scenario" explaning why we never heard of 'em before, wich could be how they died prematurely.
Might seem lame, but here's some ideas.
Two late 8-bit consoles, doomed to fail in the first place due to the soon comming 16-bit generation.
1. One would be created to mimic the arcade experience at home.
*unlike the neo-geo, the games would be made exlusively for the console.
*GFX: good for an 8-bit console; Maybe it could still be restricted to a small palette(customisable 64 colors, one color reserved for transparency), but be allowed to use all of those colors on screen at once.
*resolution: 288x216
*inputs: (4 ports)
bulky gamepads with a 32 directions stick and 3 buttons
zappers
*save feature: 128 bytes memory. Mostly used for highscores.
*restricted to .mid, .mod or .xm music.
*most games to come on the console would be arcade or arcade-comilation titles, but other genres could still get licences, as long as the game would showcase the console's features, either 4 players-mode or shaded gfx to show the graphical superiority over the previous 8-bit consoles, wich where color limited.
2. The other[?novotronik¿] could be some kind of home computer/game console hybrid, hooked to a normal tv to lower the price.
*resolution: your screenmodes idea would fit well here, but in a 4:3 ratio, so...
0 = 320x240 - 1x1 pixel size
1 = 256x192 - 1x1 pixel size
2 = 160x120 - 1x1 pixel size + free rotation and scale enabled
4 = 640x480 - 2x1 pixel size
*GFX: 256 fixed palette, colors onscreen at once depends on the sceenmode.
*inputs: mouse & keybord
*save feature: 8mb hard drive wich would allow level editor, applications, creations sharing and such.
*sound: .wav, .ogg, .mid, .mod and .xm
How are they unequal? I'd pick the first one for sure.
I prefer a custom palette over a hard drive (did you ever tried drawing something nice in 16 colors mode?) and joystick support would be a big plus for me. It would all depend on what kind of game peoples would want to make.
Originally Posted by DMT Why not do Sketchy's idea?
It'd be way more fun with custom specs. With a GameBoy compo, we already know what submited games would look like. If someone would make a game too different(not everybody knows how to recreate gameboy sound), peoples would critisize, so nothing unique could come out of this.
Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE Someone should set up some kind of behavior object for anyone to place in their game, that automatically decreases the frame rate of the game after you hit so many objects on screen at once. I'm not sure the technical aspect behind this, but for some reason a Sonic game never quite felt like a Sonic game unless the frame rate dipped below 15FPS with over 50 rings flying around the screen instantly.
That's possible in MMF2! You can use "total number of objects" for that effect
Always; set FPS to 60-("total number of objects"/x). x being some super huge number, or use a longer formula so it only kicks in if there are crap loads of objects on screen.
Originally Posted by DMT They are still unequal. I would obviously choose the computer one. Why not do Sketchy's idea?
Well it would be nice to have a slightly more versatile platform to work with than a gameboy. I did actually have a third format last time which was a handheld version of one of the consoles.
The idea of a late 8 bit console sounds like Amstrad's GX4000 which was released in 1990 believe it or not. It was almost the same hardware as the Amstrad cpc computer range but with an additional chip that added hardware scrolling sprites and DMA music to basically help the processor out and make it more games friendly.
Thats more like it Spitznagel, perhaps varying colours depending on the resolution or amount of unique tiles or something. I do think 64 and 256 colours is perhaps a bit too generous though.
something like 16 background colours and 16 sprite (active object) colours from a total of 256 to choose from might be better.
You know, most hardware can overcome its own limited pallete with a mid screen inturrupt. For example the water in all Sonic the hedgehog games uses a hardware trick which could most likely double the amount of onscreen colours. It would be nice to put that in somewhere.
Originally Posted by AndyUK I do think 64 and 256 colours is perhaps a bit too generous though.
64> The Master System had a 64 colors palette & 32 simultaneous colors. I though that, the console beeing "older", all of the colors could be used at once. It would still be way less than the snes and it's 256 colors.
256> The Atari 7800 did have a 256 palette with 25 colors on screen at once.
Anyway, I just hope that, no matter the color limit, you'll allow custom palettes.
I know about the Master system and Atari 7800, There are other examples of 8 bit computers and consoles with very good capabilities, remember the Pcengine/Turbogfx 16? Technically 8 bit console but (according to Wikipedia) could display 482 colors at once out of 512.
I'm just saying for the sake of the competition too many colours will just give the console(s) less personality and might make the game stand out less. I hope you get what I mean.
8 bit consoles released late into the market just after the Master system and Nes trying to find some market share.
1. Arcade system
Strict liscencing rules no ports from other consoles/computers and games must be to a certain standard. Only showy games that push the console will be accepted.
Graphics
High res mode 1 320x240 32 colours anywhere on screen
Low res mode 2 256x224 all colours from below pallete anywhere on screen
All unique tiles must fit insize a 64x128 rectangle
All unique sprite tiles must fit inside a 64x128 rectangle
Music can be Module, Midi, wav, ogg (sound effects can be anything)
Filesize limits are 4mb (minus the click runtime)
2 controllers 2 buttons only
1. Open license console
open licensing (fangames allowed) fairly low spec machine but still fairly versatile and cheap to develop for.
Graphics
High res mode 1 320x240 8 background colours 8 sprite colours from below pallete
High res mode 2 640x480 4 colours from below pallete
Low res mode 3 160x240 (double pixel width) all colours from below pallete
Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE Someone should set up some kind of behavior object for anyone to place in their game, that automatically decreases the frame rate of the game after you hit so many objects on screen at once. I'm not sure the technical aspect behind this, but for some reason a Sonic game never quite felt like a Sonic game unless the frame rate dipped below 15FPS with over 50 rings flying around the screen instantly.
That's possible in MMF2! You can use "total number of objects" for that effect
Always; set FPS to 60-("total number of objects"/x). x being some super huge number, or use a longer formula so it only kicks in if there are crap loads of objects on screen.
I don't think you should use total number of objects. If you have a ton of objects on one part of the level, the whole game will run slower. I think it should be based on how many are on the screen.
Well you could test for objects in a zone, but that would only work when it's not a scrolling game. I suppose you could put all the objects in a group and keep a running tally of how many's X position is within range of the camera...
8 bit consoles released late into the market (late 1991 just after the release of Sonic the hedgehog which is one of the many major contributions towards their downfall) They both gain slight niche market shares and in years to come will become collectors items on the likes of Ebay.
1. Arcade system
Strict liscencing rules no ports from other consoles/computers and games must be to a certain standard. Only showy games that push the console will be accepted.
Graphics
High res mode 1 320x240 32 colours anywhere on screen
Low res mode 2 256x224 all colours from below pallete anywhere on screen
Rotation and scaling allowed
75% 50% 25% Transparency allowed in order to show more colours
Up to 3 layers allow (foreground, playfield, background)
All unique tiles must fit insize a 64x128 rectangle
All unique sprite tiles must fit inside a 64x128 rectangle
Music can be Module, Midi, wav, ogg (sound effects can be anything)
Filesize limits are 4mb (minus the click runtime)
2 controllers 2 buttons only
2. Open license console
open licensing (fangames allowed) fairly low spec machine but still fairly versatile and cheap to develop for. Designed to be upgradable to a home computer if need be.
Graphics
High res mode 1 320x240 8 background colours 8 sprite colours from below pallete
High res mode 2 640x480 4 colours from below pallete
Low res mode 3 160x240 (double pixel width) all colours from below pallete
I formatted those specs into a table because I think it's easier to read that way*. I'll post my personal opinion on them below this. Some specs are missing from the console column. Perhaps you can copy the code I've used and add them in later.
| Arcade | Console
------------------|----------------|------------------
Scaling/Rotation | Yes | ?
Graphics mode 1 | 320x240x32 | 320x240x8
Graphics mode 2 | 256x224x64 | 640x480x4
Graphics mode 3 | - | 160x240x27
Transparency | 25%,50%,75% | ?
Max. objects | No | >64=slowdown
Layers | 3 | 1
Max. tile size | 64x128 | No limitation
Max. sprite size | 64x128 | No limitation
Music | No limitation | mod or midi
Sound | No limitation | No limitation
Max. controlers | 2 | 4, mouse OK
Max. buttons | 2 | ?
Filesize | 4mb | 2mb
Perhaps some mockups of the graphics capabilities would help? Either screenshots or vitalize apps.
My opinion on those specs. It tilts well in favour of the arcade system until I get the the button limitations; being able to use the mouse is a big plus for the console. I also think that there should be more sound/music limitations. Using mp3s beans that I'd be able to use an mp3, which is pretty ridiculous for an 8-bit console. I suggest 5-channel mods max.
I like James' suggestion:
Originally Posted by Dr. James Always; set FPS to 60-("total number of objects"/x)
As someone already mentioned, it doesn't take into account for objects that are on the playfield but aren't within the visible window, but that can easily be added. Andy, you could make some template files for each console, with a locked event group that will automatically handle these events and make sure that no one goes over the limits.
Ah actually that table helps quite a lot. Thanks for that.
I'll see about working on some mockups.
I dunno if using Mp3 is that much of a big deal, the filesize limit would force mp3s to be either very low quality or very short. 8 bit consoles could play low quality samples even the Nes.
I'm thinking maybe the Arcade console should have another bank of tiles for backgrounds specifically because there really isn't much space and thats not good for a console that will actually support parallax scrolling. Unless of course everyone wants that limitation.
To me, those mockups just prove that the specs aren't restrictive enough, or that they're too similar at the very least.
If I hadn't seen the originals I could easily believe those are the colors you'd have chosen anyway.
There's no light brown in the 27-color palette, but apart from that, most images will look *very* similar whichever palette you use.
I don't know why, but for some reason all the really old palettes on wikipedia look very undersaturated - I'm sure my old vic20 produced much more vivid colors.
It says things like "Shown here are the corresponding RGB equivalents at a saturation level of 34%" - I don't know what they mean by that...
Hmm there probably should be. But i'll wait until (hopefully) it gets frontpaged. I don't want anyone to lose loads of time because they didn't spot the thread.
Am I too late to chime in on this? If so I guess just egnor the next paragraph or so. This is just my 2 cents.
Anyway, I had the idea of making the consoles have strengths and weaknesses. Something along these lines.
Both have a resolution of 320x240.
Console 1
+ Higher Colore Pallet = 16 colors per sprite/background, 128 total colors.*
+ Hardware Scailing/Rotation = you can scail/rotate your sprites.
+ Advanced Controller = may have d-pad, 3 buttons, start and select.
- Weaker CPU = 8 sprites on screen at once.
- Small Cartredge = game must be under 512KB in size.
Console 2
+ Powerful CPU = 16 sprites on screen at once.
+ hardware parralax = can use up to 3 layers.
+ Large Cartrege = game may be up to 1MB in size.
- Basic Controller = D-pad + 2 buttons.
- Lower Color Pallet = 4 colors per strite/background, 56 total colors.*
* trancperancy dose not count as a collore you get that for free.
Anyway, my idea is to have eatch console have strengths and weaknesses. So in this example one has a higher color pallet while the other has a stronger CPU. One has scailing and rotation while the other has a larger cartredge capacity. This is just a quick example that I mocked up. The consoles still have some ballance issues.
Anyway, the competition sounds very interesting.
"Oh, my god! A lightning monster just ripped out this poor woman's eyes, and your mocking her shrubbery!" - The Spoony One
Well if you'll DC Mail the final details to me I can edit it for you. I would recommend starting a new thread though, as this one is already pretty full.
Originally Posted by AndyUK It's something you have to apply for whenever a place open up, and never have. I prefer to get on with making games and stuff anyway.
Alright, I get ya.
Still, the first post should be edited. (If it's not already)
I have a question. If I would make a Trek game for this competition, what platform should I choose? Game would be arcade, but still, I don't know, is it allowed to make a Trek game for arcade platform.
IMO I wouldn't worry about making super strict rules, you can simply judge whether or not they are "retro" enough after they are submitted. Maybe a max resolution instead of a specific resolution to use?
Originally Posted by Pisarz Ksiazkowicz (Maciej Janiszewski) I have a question. If I would make a Trek game for this competition, what platform should I choose? Game would be arcade, but still, I don't know, is it allowed to make a Trek game for arcade platform.
Originally Posted by RichhhR IMO I wouldn't worry about making super strict rules, you can simply judge whether or not they are "retro" enough after they are submitted. Maybe a max resolution instead of a specific resolution to use?
I'm trying not to be strict. The specifications are really only there to give everyone a level playing field. I wouldn't want people to specifically try to make the game look retro. People making games for 8bit consoles never tried to make them look 80's. The limitations of the actual hardware did that for them lol.
And the games shouldn't be judged on retroness either. Just on how good they are.
Then the console with the best average review scores will win, and i might give the best game a few thousand TDC points or something.
In fact you could always have a kind of two team thing where the group supporting one console rivals the team supporting the other console.
Hi AndyUK, I actually had an idea for a retro style shoot-em-up but I'm not sure if I'll have time. The reason I suggested it was because people were complaining that one system was too much better than the other and thus most people would just choose the more powerful one. If you give each imaginary system distinct strengths and weaknesses then nether has an upper hand and the choice is more about that kind of game you wont to make and what system it would be best suited to.
Just my opinion. I'm just about to start another project, and possibly a new job (fingers crossed), but I'd love to participate if I get the time.
"Oh, my god! A lightning monster just ripped out this poor woman's eyes, and your mocking her shrubbery!" - The Spoony One
those are good suggestions disthron, i had hoped the tile limit would have helped balance things out a little. but any further suggestions are welcome.
i probably wont post much because im in hospital with a collapsed lung, and i dont know for how long. i only just noticed the free internet access,
Are we allowed to have two 64x128 tilesets? One for solid tiles and the oder for background tiles?
And can we use different tilesets in different frames?
About sprites, 64x128 would only be the objects size limit right?
ive been back in hospital the past week but it would be nice to know whats happening with any entries. im fired up to do some clicking when i get out which should be today.
Oh wait I thought you had bumped the Next gen competition thread.
Ok due to lack of interest i had actually given up on this one. Unless people actually keep posting every now and then i can't tell whether anyone is still actually taking part.
Also I doubt there will be any posts after this one either so, we'll see.
The trouble is, this is the second time ive attempted to make this competition and it keep dying down and being forgotten.
Not to mention other people constantly creating competitions all the time.
I did want to revise the rules a bit but, that would be a bit rude since people are still making games.
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Edited by Spitznagl
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Get better soon Andy.
