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GamesterXIII
Registered
04/12/2008
Points
1110
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26th December, 2010 at 23:21:50 -
The only differences betweens TGF 2, MMF2 Standard, and MMF2 Dev are the licenses and extensions correct?
TGF2 = no extensions , Splash Screen required
MMF2 = Extensions , Splash Screen required
MMF2 Dev = Dev exclusive extensions + no splash screen
Is that right?
If so, would anyone mind listing the developer-only extensions? Thanks!
 Edited by GamesterXIII
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monkeytherat
Hero of Time Jr
Registered
07/11/2010
Points
1293
 
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26th December, 2010 at 23:38:06 -
All the differences between the versions: http://www.clickteam.com/website/usa/product-comparisons.html
I didn't know there were any dev-only extensions, so I don't have a list. Searching "dev only" in the extension list returns 0 results.
Extension list if you want it/ don't know about it: http://ext.neatwares.ath.cx
Edited by monkeytherat
If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a Java program.
The rest of them will write Perl programs.
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Sketchy
Cornwall UK
Registered
06/11/2004
Points
1971
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26th December, 2010 at 23:44:14 -
http://www.clickteam.co.uk/compareproducts.php
Basically, TGF2 just isn't up to the job, as it lacks extensions and the event list editor (the event editor sucks). It's actually inferior to MMF1 (IMO Clickteam should be giving it away free of charge).
The additional extensions you get with the Dev version are really only useful if you're making applications, rather than games. It costs 3 times as much as the Std version, so it's not going to be worth it unless you're *very* serious about making commercial products.
MMF2 ev only extensions:-
dialog box
data grid
double precision calculator
email object
explorer
list view
masked edit
OS
process viewer
quick hash object
regular expressions object
spellcheck object
trial period object
xml parser object
YASO object
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GamesterXIII
Registered
04/12/2008
Points
1110
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27th December, 2010 at 03:42:20 -
Thanks guys.
The lack of Event List editor kinda kills it for me. I don't use extensions at all (stability issues, retard paranoia, etc.) so thats not a big deal. I couldn't see myself using MMF1 over TGF2 . . . its interface is completely counter-intuitive and makes simple processes take 10x as long.
I guess my choice is MMF2 Standard > upgrade later.
Whats wrong with the TGF2 event editor by the way?
Oh yeah also . . . is anyone familiar with shipping times for clickteam? I know gamesare is located in the US, but I would rather not use them for a strong personal dislike for a certain someone from there and the fact that clickteam has it for 15% off.
Edited by GamesterXIII
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OMC
What a goofball
Registered
21/05/2007
Points
3516
      
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27th December, 2010 at 03:48:39 -
Good a plan as any. I bought MMF2 Standard with the intention to upgrade to Dev, but never got around it. It was a huge step up from TGF2.
I think Sketchy meant that the event editor in general for all three, not just TGF2's, stinks in comparison with the event list.
EDIT: I recall shipping being normal/fast. Couple days tops.
Edited by OMC
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monkeytherat
Hero of Time Jr
Registered
07/11/2010
Points
1293
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27th December, 2010 at 04:56:17 -
I personally got dev because I didn't want to have to put clickteam's name all over my games, since eventually I plan to sell them. It's more of a personal thing, I like to only have my stuff in whatever I make (which is why I rarely use extensions). )I got my copy from some other website that offered student discounts, so I'm not sure about shipping times, but I would imagine it's about 1-2 weeks, depending on where in the US you live (assuming you live in the US), since they ship from England.
If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a Java program.
The rest of them will write Perl programs.
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Sketchy
Cornwall UK
Registered
06/11/2004
Points
1971
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27th December, 2010 at 17:52:24 -
MMF2 has two editors you can use to edit events:
* The event editor - that's the one with all the tick boxes, where you have to hover your mouse over a tick to see what the actions are, and double-click to edit anything. It's useful for some stuff (mostly copying actions between different objects), but for general coding purposes it's slow and awkward, and makes it much harder to debug code.
* The event list editor - shows both events and actions, in one long list. This is what you should be using for 99% of your coding.
TGF2 only has the event editor, and NOT the event list editor.
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Ricky
loves Left For Dead 2
Registered
28/12/2006
Points
4075
   
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27th December, 2010 at 21:22:06 -
 I never use the list editor unless i'm re-ordering actions. But TGF2 lets you access a small list editor to do that to, just for 1 event at a time.
Edited by Ricky
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Jon C-B
I create vaporware
Registered
23/04/2008
Points
237
 
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27th December, 2010 at 21:40:05 -
ive never really seen a use for the list editor, why is it better?
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OMC
What a goofball
Registered
21/05/2007
Points
3516
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27th December, 2010 at 21:47:28 -
Originally Posted by monkeytherat
since they ship from England.
Do they? Shipping was a couple days for me, and they have a place in the US. Or do you mean the vendor you got it from?
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The Chris Street
Administrator
Unspeakably Lazy Admin
Registered
14/05/2002
Points
48488
     
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27th December, 2010 at 22:09:19 -
I think my copy of MMF2 Dev was shipped from France.
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monkeytherat
Hero of Time Jr
Registered
07/11/2010
Points
1293
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27th December, 2010 at 22:40:14 -
@OldManClayton I'm not sure about them shipping from England, though I thought they did. The place I got them from ships from the US, though.
If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a Java program.
The rest of them will write Perl programs.
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GamesterXIII
Registered
04/12/2008
Points
1110
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27th December, 2010 at 22:54:06 -
Originally Posted by Jon C-B
ive never really seen a use for the list editor, why is it better?
It allows more control over which order events are triggered in. It also allows for repetitive actions to be performed more quickly and easily(such as copying and pasting the same expression/part of an expression to one object.)
I can't believe TGF2 doesn't have it. I mainly use the main event editor as I usually code in order and I have a ton of things down to a science, but there are times where I have to go back into the list editor to perform repetitive motions or to manipulate which order the events are in.
BOO just noticed that the sales price is over. Gess I'll have to order from gamesare . . . 
Edited by GamesterXIII
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Sketchy
Cornwall UK
Registered
06/11/2004
Points
1971
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27th December, 2010 at 23:59:08 -
The main advantage of the Event List editor is that it shows both conditions and actions at the same time.
You can easily see at a glance exactly what every line of code is doing, making it easier to spot and fix bugs. You can easily see (and manipulate) the order in which actions are processed.
The only time the standard Event Editor is useful is when you want to copy the same actions to multiple objects.
Maybe if you're not used to the Event List editor, it will be slower/awkward at first, but once you start using it a lot, you will find it *much* more efficient - especially if your projects are very complicated.
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Jon Lambert
Administrator
Vaporware Master
Registered
19/12/2004
Points
8235
   
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28th December, 2010 at 01:12:48 -
Originally Posted by Sketchy
The main advantage of the Event List editor is that it shows both conditions and actions at the same time.
You can easily see at a glance exactly what every line of code is doing, making it easier to spot and fix bugs. You can easily see (and manipulate) the order in which actions are processed.
The only time the standard Event Editor is useful is when you want to copy the same actions to multiple objects.
Maybe if you're not used to the Event List editor, it will be slower/awkward at first, but once you start using it a lot, you will find it *much* more efficient - especially if your projects are very complicated.
See, if I remember correctly, neither editor let's me scroll with complete freedom, that is, it just controls which event I'm looking at without letting me scroll to a point in the event, so the more actions or conditions I have, the more I have to zoom out, so it becomes difficult to read the event list editor much more quickly than it does the event editor. Either way, I still find the list editor clumsy and awkward because I can't as easily copy things from object to object and because everything is shown at once.
Sandwich Time!Whoo!
JoyCheck & KeyCheck Widgets
For easy implementation of customizable joystick and keyboard controls.
http://www.create-games.com/download.asp?id=8364
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Silveraura
God's God
Registered
08/08/2002
Points
6747
   
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28th December, 2010 at 06:03:03 -
In short, the event editor is an easy to understand graph. Events listed in order on the left, objects that events effect across the top. Intersections on the grid are actions.
*The event editor is limited though because actions occur in the order which you made them and it's impossible to easily change this without the event list editor.
*The event list editor shows you the condition and below it, all the actions and in the order they're processed. It makes the whole process a lot easier to visualize in your head and also gives you the ability to drag and drop actions to change their order.
**However the event list editor suffers from turning out like a really, really long list unless you're simply using it on a per-event basis - kind of defeating the purpose of using MMF2 instead of just going out and learning how to program in a real language.
My personal recommendation is to work in the event editor and then use the event list editor to edit individual events. This expands your options and gives your the advantages of both, bypassing the disadvantages of both.
TGF2 is pathetic though and not worth the $50 price tag, and the Newgrounds Edition? Well, you'd be better off making a game in Microsoft Paint. Yes, it's that bad.
http://www.facebook.com/truediamondgame
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Sketchy
Cornwall UK
Registered
06/11/2004
Points
1971
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28th December, 2010 at 11:10:08 -
What's wrong with the Newgrounds version? Is it not exactly the same as the standard version, apart from the build options? I admit I haven't paid it much attention.
Which reminds me - does TGF2 have the Java/J2ME/HWA builds, or are they MMF2-only?
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Silveraura
God's God
Registered
08/08/2002
Points
6747
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28th December, 2010 at 20:00:57 -
Originally Posted by Sketchy
What's wrong with the Newgrounds version? Is it not exactly the same as the standard version, apart from the build options? I admit I haven't paid it much attention.
Which reminds me - does TGF2 have the Java/J2ME/HWA builds, or are they MMF2-only?
It's severely limited - more so then TGF2.
Take TGF2, strip even more features away, strip away anything that wont work in Flash, and then limit them to only be able to compile in flash. Then make it so that the flash will only work on one specific website.
Yeah, TGF2 - Newgrounds Edition is a joke. I'm impressed Clickteam has the right idea when it comes to putting themselves out there, but this is a horrible, horrible, first impression on the software. If TGF2 or especially TGF2 Newgrounds was the first time I ever used the software, I'd drop it in a heartbeat.
http://www.facebook.com/truediamondgame
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GamesterXIII
Registered
04/12/2008
Points
1110
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29th December, 2010 at 02:28:12 -
Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE
Originally Posted by Sketchy
What's wrong with the Newgrounds version? Is it not exactly the same as the standard version, apart from the build options? I admit I haven't paid it much attention.
Which reminds me - does TGF2 have the Java/J2ME/HWA builds, or are they MMF2-only?
It's severely limited - more so then TGF2.
Take TGF2, strip even more features away, strip away anything that wont work in Flash, and then limit them to only be able to compile in flash. Then make it so that the flash will only work on one specific website.
Yeah, TGF2 - Newgrounds Edition is a joke. I'm impressed Clickteam has the right idea when it comes to putting themselves out there, but this is a horrible, horrible, first impression on the software. If TGF2 or especially TGF2 Newgrounds was the first time I ever used the software, I'd drop it in a heartbeat.
Why would you want things that can't work in flash in a version thats made exclusively for flash?
I seriously doubt you would drop TGF2 if you were new to it. You started with TGF 1 did you not? You certainly didn't drop that and TGF2 is lightyears ahead of TGF1 in every way possible. TGF1 is an unstable, buggy POS compared to it  .
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Ricky
loves Left For Dead 2
Registered
28/12/2006
Points
4075
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29th December, 2010 at 02:36:54 -
All you need are fast loops and actives. And new-grounds tgf2 has both. Some people are spoiled by extensions 
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Sketchy
Cornwall UK
Registered
06/11/2004
Points
1971
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29th December, 2010 at 03:35:31 -
@Gamester-
True, but back in the days of TGF1/KnP, Clickteam's products were cheaper, and there wasn't really any alternative anyway, let alone a free one. Now there are numerous freeware copycats - some of which offer a level of functionality to rival MMF2 (eg. Construct).
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Silveraura
God's God
Registered
08/08/2002
Points
6747
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29th December, 2010 at 09:58:36 -
Originally Posted by GamesterXIII
Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE
Originally Posted by Sketchy
What's wrong with the Newgrounds version? Is it not exactly the same as the standard version, apart from the build options? I admit I haven't paid it much attention.
Which reminds me - does TGF2 have the Java/J2ME/HWA builds, or are they MMF2-only?
It's severely limited - more so then TGF2.
Take TGF2, strip even more features away, strip away anything that wont work in Flash, and then limit them to only be able to compile in flash. Then make it so that the flash will only work on one specific website.
Yeah, TGF2 - Newgrounds Edition is a joke. I'm impressed Clickteam has the right idea when it comes to putting themselves out there, but this is a horrible, horrible, first impression on the software. If TGF2 or especially TGF2 Newgrounds was the first time I ever used the software, I'd drop it in a heartbeat.
Why would you want things that can't work in flash in a version thats made exclusively for flash?
I seriously doubt you would drop TGF2 if you were new to it. You started with TGF 1 did you not? You certainly didn't drop that and TGF2 is lightyears ahead of TGF1 in every way possible. TGF1 is an unstable, buggy POS compared to it .
Actually TGF1 was extremely simple and easy to take up.
MMF 1.5 made the whole thing more indepth but trickier to use. MMF2 improved it, but not to the simplicity of TGF1 which is good for people who know how to use it and new comers who want something pretty powerful, but people like who I was when I first started using TGF1 probably wont be too attracted to MMF2 as much as I was TGF1. That's not to say TGF1 is better, MMF2 is by far, a lot better, but the appeal just isn't as strong.
Also, when I meant that TGF2 couldn't do things that wasn't flash enabled, I wasn't suggesting that it should be able to... I was suggesting that it was just one many limitations to the software that new comers just will-not-understand or put up with. To them, it'll just be one big selling scam. "Want this? Want this? BUY IT!" So but no, what I meant wasn't so much that they should add the features that don't work in Flash - what they should do is not add more to the already punishing limitations of only being able to make Flash games that only work on one site. If you NEED to take at least one step back, why on earth would you take 5 more steps back, just to make it "free".
Clickteam has a really unique and powerful piece of software here. The last thing they need to do is lazily strip features away from it to distribute it. I mean I understand MMF2 vs MMF2 Developer. What I don't understand is why TGF2 can't be cheaper and work more like a fully functional piece of software that encourages you to upgrade to a better version, instead of... essentially what is a paid for demo that just doesn't expire.
http://www.facebook.com/truediamondgame
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Duncan
Thelonious Dunc
Registered
18/05/2002
Points
552
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30th December, 2010 at 13:45:25 -
TGF2:NE is targeted at the common schmuck who wants to make Flash games. They'll be motivated to upgrade in order to live the dream and make fractions of cents off of their garbage. Basically, it's perfect.
TGF2:NE and presumably TGF2 lack the full event list editor, yes, but you can still use the per-event version thereof (i.e., double click an event, rearrange and manipulate conditions displayed as a text list, press esc to go back again, etc.).
I mainly use the main event editor as I usually code in order and I have a ton of things down to a science, but there are times where I have to go back into the list editor to perform repetitive motions or to manipulate which order the events are in.
So yep, you can do this. It's still a lazy omission, but it won't seriously cripple what you can do.
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GamesterXIII
Registered
04/12/2008
Points
1110
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30th December, 2010 at 13:59:28 -
Oh haha thats still a version of the event list editor then. Why the hell are people complaining about it then? -_-.
Thanks for the false impression, TDCers! Standard TGF 2 doesn't seem so bad given that.
Next question : Is there a HWA for TGF 2?
Nevermind that last question just found the answer.
Edited by GamesterXIII
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Sketchy
Cornwall UK
Registered
06/11/2004
Points
1971
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30th December, 2010 at 14:32:41 -
I did explain the difference between the two editors quite clearly.
If you got the wrong impression, you should blame Clickteam for not giving them more sensible names.
There's still the issue of extensions, which may or may not be a problem, depending on which you use. A lot of them don't do anything you couldn't already do by other means - they just make it a lot easier and/or more efficient. Some you couldn't possibly hope to replace.
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GamesterXIII
Registered
04/12/2008
Points
1110
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30th December, 2010 at 14:54:36 -
Yeah some can't be replaced, but fortunately I don't use any extensions.
I think I may use things such as viewport in the future, but they aren't a 100% necessity for me.
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Silveraura
God's God
Registered
08/08/2002
Points
6747
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30th December, 2010 at 18:38:11 -
Originally Posted by Duncan TGF2:NE is targeted at the common schmuck who wants to make Flash games. They'll be motivated to upgrade in order to live the dream and make fractions of cents off of their garbage. Basically, it's perfect.
TGF2:NE and presumably TGF2 lack the full event list editor, yes, but you can still use the per-event version thereof (i.e., double click an event, rearrange and manipulate conditions displayed as a text list, press esc to go back again, etc.).
I mainly use the main event editor as I usually code in order and I have a ton of things down to a science, but there are times where I have to go back into the list editor to perform repetitive motions or to manipulate which order the events are in.
So yep, you can do this. It's still a lazy omission, but it won't seriously cripple what you can do.
How is this a lazy omission. Apparently what you consider lazy, I consider efficient. Not everything has to be a long drawn out process. In fact, considering software is there to aid in producing things, not be a hurdle to jump over to get to the finish, I'd say the simplest effective way to do anything is always the best.
And no, neither default movement nor using instable extensions for everything you want to do, are "effective" ways to do anything, so as simple as they are, they shouldn't even be considered in my opinion.
http://www.facebook.com/truediamondgame
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Duncan
Thelonious Dunc
Registered
18/05/2002
Points
552
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30th December, 2010 at 19:10:24 -
Are you the same person who posted up there? You said
The last thing they need to do is lazily strip features away from it to distribute it.
And I thought that's how we were all describing the absence of the full list editor!
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Jon Lambert
Administrator
Vaporware Master
Registered
19/12/2004
Points
8235
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30th December, 2010 at 20:08:35 -
Originally Posted by Sketchyhttp://www.clickteam.co.uk/compareproducts.php
Basically, TGF2 just isn't up to the job, as it lacks extensions and the event list editor (the event editor sucks). It's actually inferior to MMF1 (IMO Clickteam should be giving it away free of charge).
The additional extensions you get with the Dev version are really only useful if you're making applications, rather than games. It costs 3 times as much as the Std version, so it's not going to be worth it unless you're *very* serious about making commercial products.
MMF2 ev only extensions:-
dialog box
data grid
double precision calculator
email object
explorer
list view
masked edit
OS
process viewer
quick hash object
regular expressions object
spellcheck object
trial period object
xml parser object
YASO object
We also have:
SQLite 3 Pro
Character Image
Registry++
Integrated Path Planning Object
COM+ object
Regular Expressions
Sphax Kernel
And these runtimes:
Stand-alone Java Application
Stand-alone Java for Mobile
Stand-alone Java for Blackberry
Stand-alone Mac Application (Java)
Java sub-application
And the MDI feature that was mentioned on that chart. Also, I thought you weren't allowed to sell TGF2 applications at all?
TGF2 doesn't get to build anything besides .exe, .ccn, .scr, and .swf right?
Sorry if I'm being redundant, I just wanted a more comprehensive list.
Sandwich Time!Whoo!
JoyCheck & KeyCheck Widgets
For easy implementation of customizable joystick and keyboard controls.
http://www.create-games.com/download.asp?id=8364
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GamesterXIII
Registered
04/12/2008
Points
1110
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1st January, 2011 at 04:32:54 -
If it can build .exes and has an HWA version i'm sold. I can always easily upgrade to MMF2 later on down the road.
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Sketchy
Cornwall UK
Registered
06/11/2004
Points
1971
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1st January, 2011 at 17:06:22 -
The other thing I thought of - does TGF2 use the same file format as MMF2? I seem to remember TGF1 and MMF1 used different formats.
It would be pretty annoying if you couldn't open files created in MMF2, although that obviously wouldn't be worth paying the extra £40 for.
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OMC
What a goofball
Registered
21/05/2007
Points
3516
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1st January, 2011 at 17:27:05 -
TGF1 and MMF1 were different generations. MMF2 and TGF2 use the same mfa format. If an MMF2 file doesn't use any features that TGF2 doesn't have, TGF2 should be able to open it.
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Liquixcat
Administrator
Lazy Coder
Registered
08/12/2002
Points
201
 
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6th January, 2011 at 12:01:37 -
Personally I use event editor and event list editor; I need and love both! The thought of losing one or the other is not worth thinking about. I'm using MMF2 Standard.
As for shipping, I think I got mine in a week or so, was a few years ago. And that was being shipped from France to Canada. I purchased it from the clickteam website.
thinking is like pong, it's easy, but you miss sometimes.
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GamesterXIII
Registered
04/12/2008
Points
1110
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6th January, 2011 at 14:02:25 -
1 week doesn't sound bad, thanks for that  .
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