Pff, funny situation guys GM has got already iOS exporter on the way is Android and PSP probably also MeeBoo but already someone menage to get the decompiler for iOS But their exporters are working on that way that only Yoyo Games has got access to them, so you can publish games only by them more precisely they are choosing what they want to publish.
So what Yoyo Games is doing? Trying to scare them away with legal lawsuit...
But hey isn't GM games decompiler since version 5 and they didn't care for it? Haven't community asked them for help, and after their refuses they just hacked and cracked GM by themselves to secure their creations?
BTW my personal comment:
Oh Also I just Love how Yoyo Games is talking about law where they were breaking it by themselves and they even didn’t hide with it. Proof? Just on the Glog itself:
So there is about half year differences between doing PSP runtime (which works on PSP) and getting LEGAL Licence and LEGAL Devkit to LEGALLY do their stuff. Isn’t it funny that they know are treating others like someone worst because he is better than them and can do reverse engineering?
Oh and don’t forget one thing – UK behalf like a dog when US tells UK to jump you are asking how high, and other way around it that you can be only kicked through the doors, if you don’t get allusion I will be more precise.
If US wants someone to be extradited (and RE-ing for such small company as Yoyo Games LTD wouldn’t be even the case) it is extradited, but if UK wants someone, they can only wish about getting him from US, lastly it’s slowly changing but still UK lawsuits are in the backyard.
//End of my personal comment//
So to sum up, whatever you think or read that I disagree with Clickteam, with their politics or ways they go... Or even hear by yourself or from anyone else believe me that I appreciate how they are trying to improve their contact with community, how it was strong from beginning, how they are making our dreams true at the same time allowing us to be ourselves and giving their tools done for us to our hands, sooner or later and always trying to make them up to date with no mistakes always fully legally.
So yeah, thanks CT for everything, and now GM community starts to rage Yoyo Games
Oh the irony. Perhaps they feel that taking from a large company is okay, but from smaller companies it's a crime against humanity. Either way who cares? Just figure out a way to make your program more difficult to crack, or cut your losses. I think someone else on here made a good point, if you make something that someone is willing to crack, you're on the right track. Personally, I would rather someone get a cracked version of something I make and use their money for more important things (like food or rent), but that's probably not a popular opinion, and I can't force anyone to think like me, and of course I would like it if they we're to support me when they have the extra money to help out.
But anyways, the moral of the story is to not stick your foot in your mouth, kids. If you're going to do something that is technically illegal, cover your damn tracks.
OFFTOPIC: Everytime I see your name I have to try to figure out what exactly it is. Is it "Fano the RPG" "Fan other pg" "Fanothe RPG" or what? That and how come I won a GOTW but I never got a fancy trophy like yours? Gripe complain whine.
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I don't think it's illegal to code for the PSP without a licensed Sony devkit, as long as you're not using a Sony devkit. I hardly have authority on the matter though.
Originally Posted by HorrendousGames I would rather someone get a cracked version of something I make and use their money for more important things (like food or rent)
I don't want to get into a huge exploding discussion of piracy... but remember that the people who make these products sell them to make money for... food and rent.
By the way, fixed the trophy issue. You're supposed to bug us when things like that (don't) happen.
Originally Posted by HorrendousGames OFFTOPIC: Everytime I see your name I have to try to figure out what exactly it is. Is it "Fano the RPG" "Fan other pg" "Fanothe RPG" or what? That and how come I won a GOTW but I never got a fancy trophy like yours? Gripe complain whine.
Don't know about the second, but I always thought his name was "F anotheRPG" like "F Another RPG".
It's different story But all of you are close but not close enough.
And about piracy the thing is Coding for PSP is OK, but they where showing working version on PSP without original Devkit what means that they were running it on hacked PSP
fano, hacking cfw onto a psp or running homebrew code on a hacked psp is not illegal in the slightest. its using the hacked psp to run pirated software that is illegal.
Umm... This is silly. The damage is already done, a lawsuit wont remove the "decompiler" from existance. After reading a bit (hadn't heard of a decompiler before) it seems like it has been around for a long time and YoYo Games just been too lazy to actually implement some sort of protection.
Edited by Phredreeke
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
Pirating software is illegal, as well as using illegal stuff is illegal. So to get homebrew stuff on PSP you have to hack (flash) PSP OS which is illegal (not OK with Sony Agreement) and we can add to it that they use that presentation (running on hacked PSP) to make a hype around PSP exporter which increases sale, which is illegal procedure - using hacked software to get revenue from it.
Originally Posted by Robot Cecil fano, hacking cfw onto a psp or running homebrew code on a hacked psp is not illegal in the slightest. its using the hacked psp to run pirated software that is illegal.
Uhm, yes it is.
Ever heard of the DMCA? There are no exclusions for the PSP, Xbox 360, or the PS3, FYI. Apple devices have a specific exclusion though that allows them to be jailbroken legally.
Sony dislikes CFW because the average Joe can say it's for homebrew but use it for piracy on whim. A company that's showing the work it's done and wants to invest in the platform is different for them. YoYo Games has or is making publishing deals with Sony, so something kept the big cheeses from being angry. It could be that they were working with Sony from the beginning and just took awhile to get a full devkit. And I'm sure Sony gets revenue from digital game sales.
We don't really know if they've broken any laws. But it does seem odd.
CFW is... in a gray area. I think that if you don't distribute the actually firmware, only a patcher it's legal. If you write the custom firmware with Sony's SDK it's illegal, as the SDK compiles Sony libraries into the code. If you manually reverse engineer it and patch it by hand (ie not using Sony tools) it should be legal as long as you don't distribute the patched version. The optimal way would be to patch the firmware in memory as you load it (the original Xbox Linux softmod worked that way, so does the "Priiloader" for Wii, I have no idea about PSP CFW) similar to how Game Genie patched games with cheat codes in the 90s.
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
Originally Posted by Robot Cecil fano, hacking cfw onto a psp or running homebrew code on a hacked psp is not illegal in the slightest. its using the hacked psp to run pirated software that is illegal.
Uhm, yes it is.
Ever heard of the DMCA? There are no exclusions for the PSP, Xbox 360, or the PS3, FYI. Apple devices have a specific exclusion though that allows them to be jailbroken legally.
tl;dr
FACTS
the dmca is there to protect the pirating of software. have you even read it?
"It criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services intended to circumvent measures (commonly known as digital rights management or DRM) that control access to copyrighted works"
which is in respect to copyrighted software. homebrew does NOT fall into that category.
Hacking a PSP is not illegal. It's a civil case.
Reverse-engineering a compiler for the PSP and distributing it is also not illegal. Once again, it's a civil case.
Selling the compiler, or otherwise profitting from it, would be illegal.
Your mileage for these definitions will vary depending on where you live. Civil and criminal law are different between the U.S. and the U.K.
Originally Posted by aphant Hacking a PSP is not illegal. It's a civil case.
Reverse-engineering a compiler for the PSP and distributing it is also not illegal. Once again, it's a civil case.
Selling the compiler, or otherwise profitting from it, would be illegal.
Your mileage for these definitions will vary depending on where you live. Civil and criminal law are different between the U.S. and the U.K.
done and done.
think of it as a mattress. once you buy it, you can rip off whatever tags you want and put whatever sheets you want on it. not illegal. however, stealing pillows for your new mattress is.
And always remember, mattresses aren't as comfortable without the box springs. You can go with the slats, however, if that is an option. You can't go wrong with a mattress pad, although they are a pain in the ass when you need to change your sheets.
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Originally Posted by HorrendousGames they are a pain in the ass when you need to change your sheets.
That is THE truth. They make sheets a pain even when you don't have to change them! Not that sheets aren't already a pain to begin with.
On the subject of the decompiler: It's a tough case for YoYo. It might be their fault for not including heavier encryption, but isn't it the second best thing they can do to stop it now? I'm glad I'm not in that mess. I feel kind of sorry for them.
On the subject of the decompiler: It's a tough case for YoYo. It might be their fault for not including heavier encryption, but isn't it the second best thing they can do to stop it now?
In a worst case scenario the original "decompiler" programmers will be seen as martyrs and more people will "join the cause". In a best case scenario the programmers cease developing and distributing the software, but it will still be available from other places.
One might argue they should hire the people behind the "decompiler" as testers for their next version
Why was the decompiler made?
I can think of two legit reasons why the decompiler was made: 1. someone lost the source to their game and wanted to "recover it". 2. to show that it can be done and YoYo needs to fix it.
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
Piracy on the PSP isn't okay, homebrew falls into a different category (or not) but actually it isn't okay either. Because you can create a great homebrew game, just like any commercial title (well maybe not any, but it's certainly possible to get a decent quality title) and sell copies of that title. Et voila you can publish a title on a Sony PSP without Sony, ouch that hurts.
Originally Posted by Fanotherpg Pirating software is illegal, as well as using illegal stuff is illegal. So to get homebrew stuff on PSP you have to hack (flash) PSP OS which is illegal (not OK with Sony Agreement) and we can add to it that they use that presentation (running on hacked PSP) to make a hype around PSP exporter which increases sale, which is illegal procedure - using hacked software to get revenue from it.
If you buy a device, I don't care who or what says I can't do it, I'm legally allowed to do it. In fact, a court case presented by Apple to attempt to sue people for hacking their iPhones, was recently thrown out because it's absurd.
You sell me a physical piece of hardware and I'll do whatever I damn well please with it. If you catch me trying to hack someone else's devices, that's different for obvious reasons, same with illegally installing pirated software.
These are all logical exceptions, but to tell me I'm not allowed to hack my own device is absurd and I wont let anyone tell me it's illegal. When I paid over $200 for something, it's mine, I don't care. I physically own the device and you can't tell me how to physically interact with it's internal parts, electronically or not. Get out of my life.
Originally Posted by Jenswa Piracy on the PSP isn't okay, homebrew falls into a different category (or not) but actually it isn't okay either. Because you can create a great homebrew game, just like any commercial title (well maybe not any, but it's certainly possible to get a decent quality title) and sell copies of that title. Et voila you can publish a title on a Sony PSP without Sony, ouch that hurts.
Good luck with that!
- The game wouldn't run on an off-the-shelf PSP. (actually, this point might be invalid due to PS3 hackers calculating Sony's private key, if Sony is using the same key for PSP software that is)
- Since you are bypassing the PSP's security system, there's nothing stopping other people from copying your game.
- No retailer would touch it with a ten foot pole out of fear of retaliation from licensed distributors.
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
Originally Posted by Fanotherpg Pirating software is illegal, as well as using illegal stuff is illegal. So to get homebrew stuff on PSP you have to hack (flash) PSP OS which is illegal (not OK with Sony Agreement) and we can add to it that they use that presentation (running on hacked PSP) to make a hype around PSP exporter which increases sale, which is illegal procedure - using hacked software to get revenue from it.
If you buy a device, I don't care who or what says I can't do it, I'm legally allowed to do it. In fact, a court case presented by Apple to attempt to sue people for hacking their iPhones, was recently thrown out because it's absurd.
You sell me a physical piece of hardware and I'll do whatever I damn well please with it. If you catch me trying to hack someone else's devices, that's different for obvious reasons, same with illegally installing pirated software.
These are all logical exceptions, but to tell me I'm not allowed to hack my own device is absurd and I wont let anyone tell me it's illegal. When I paid over $200 for something, it's mine, I don't care. I physically own the device and you can't tell me how to physically interact with it's internal parts, electronically or not. Get out of my life.
Did you not read the thread?
Apple devices have a specific exclusion under the DMCA in the US. I'm not sure how it works in other countries.
Jailbreaking "your" non-apple device is still illegal.
Silverfire like you are stating - you are buying the hardware (!) not OS, and yes you can do with hardware whatever you want, but hacking OS is illegal, because for it you've got seperate contract (OS Licence) and it's not getting into your life it's only about being fair to others. It's like someone would buy your game, and decompile it then do anything what they want with source and for example after some time tried to get income from it, would it be fair against you?
And why decompiler was created? Because at Clickteam we are given the exporter and we are decided whether we try to put game on iPhone, or Flash or whatsoever, whereas at Yoyo Games, they own exporters as company, and they decide who would be published and where and to who, and when.
Originally Posted by Jenswa Piracy on the PSP isn't okay, homebrew falls into a different category (or not) but actually it isn't okay either. Because you can create a great homebrew game, just like any commercial title (well maybe not any, but it's certainly possible to get a decent quality title) and sell copies of that title. Et voila you can publish a title on a Sony PSP without Sony, ouch that hurts.
Good luck with that!
- The game wouldn't run on an off-the-shelf PSP. (actually, this point might be invalid due to PS3 hackers calculating Sony's private key, if Sony is using the same key for PSP software that is)
- Since you are bypassing the PSP's security system, there's nothing stopping other people from copying your game.
- No retailer would touch it with a ten foot pole out of fear of retaliation from licensed distributors.
Not that I am going to try it, but you could implement serial keys and all other sorts of drm into your game and distribution can be done over the internet. Who needs retailers? Everyone is a producer and everyone is a consumer. The nice instruction booklets can be distributed with the product as a convenient pdf document which the consumer can print himself.
O and sorry, it wasn't Acclaim, but Accolade vs Sega.
It seems that it's all about control or should I say power? Perhaps rights is a better way to describe the problem. With the product from Clickteam you can do with your game what you like. But with GM not. However getting into the AppStore is a bit different because Apple decides whether your game is authorized or not for sale. But with Flash you can decide it, just like the Android.
Getting onto devices is becoming even easier with the browser enabled devices and decent browser based games. No need for an AppStore, just write your game in html5 with canvas and javascript and publish it on your site. Works the same for Android or perhaps the PSP or NDS even the Wii works with their Opera browser. But you might be lacking the raw power which one could otherwise claim from the device.
So what if you implement serial keys? You can't verify that the serial key isn't already in use unless you require the PSP to be connected to the internet while playing (yeah right, that will surely be popular on a handheld console!)
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
"but hacking OS is illegal, because for it you've got seperate contract (OS Licence) and it's not getting into your life it's only about being fair to others. It's like someone would buy your game, and decompile it then do anything what they want with source and for example after some time tried to get income from it, would it be fair against you?"
exploiting the OS in order to load your OWN cfw/HEN onto the HARDWARE is not the same as selling pirated software for profit. the latter begets a profit at the expense of the creator.
stop all this nonsense talking about shit you obviously aren't entirely reading and don't comprehend.
"Under DMCA, a potential user who wants to avail herself of an alleged fair use privilege to crack copy protection (which is not prohibited) would have to do it herself since no equipment would lawfully be marketed for that purpose."
oh wait. whats that? i CAN hack my device? i just have to do it myself?
but just up above there IS equipment (not for the purpose of hacking, but can be used as such) available to crack the device(psp).
Hacking the psp to put custom firmware/Homebrew ENabler, and in turn, homebrew software IS NOT illegal. Using it to circumvent copyright protection on pirated games/software IS. There's a difference.
Anyone can claim fair use on anything, that doesn't mean its right. 99.999% of the people who hack their devices are doing so illegally. You can't seriously think that every single person that has a hacked PSP etc. is involved in the homebrew scene. . .
Originally Posted by GamesterXIII Anyone can claim fair use on anything, that doesn't mean its right. 99.999% of the people who hack their devices are doing so illegally. You can't seriously think that every single person that has a hacked PSP etc. is involved in the homebrew scene. . .
Of course not. But are you saying that every PSP homebrewer should stop doing it just because other people are using it for piracy?
How about illegalizing Windows, most people who illegally download music/movies/games do so on a computer running Windows
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
Originally Posted by GamesterXIII . You can't seriously think that every single person that has a hacked PSP etc. is involved in the homebrew scene. . .
No one ever said everyone is -_-
Originally Posted by GamesterXIII 99.999% of the people who hack their devices are doing so illegally.
Where did that number come from? It may hurt but try shoving it back in there.
Originally Posted by GamesterXIII Anyone can claim fair use on anything, that doesn't mean its right. 99.999% of the people who hack their devices are doing so illegally. You can't seriously think that every single person that has a hacked PSP etc. is involved in the homebrew scene. . .
Of course not. But are you saying that every PSP homebrewer should stop doing it just because other people are using it for piracy?
How about illegalizing Windows, most people who illegally download music/movies/games do so on a computer running Windows
I never said that. I never said anyone should stop doing it, I just said that it is illegal in most cases.
@Ricky
Have you ever been involved in communities that are devoted to, or full of people that modify their devices? Almost every single one of them are doing so illegally. Have you even seen a private tracker? I seriously doubt you have, but there are so many things that get released to private trackers days/weeks/months before release dates and there are literally thousands of people that download these things, illegally, and run them on their (quite obviously) illegally "hacked" devices. Guesstimate (derp), but I would say there are tens of thousands of people, perhaps more, with illegally modified devices to every 1 person that is involved in the homebrew scene that has a hacked device.
My only point is that they had to hack PSP to run they're runner and they didn't make it for themselves, they made it to hype Game Maker which will bring them income before getting official SDK from Sony - and those are their words.
Yes, because GeoHot posted Sony's private key on his website, which is arguably intellectual property. (I say arguably, because I'm not sure whether you can consider a number to be intellectual property, and the private key is nothing but a number) I do think it's pretty foolish of him to post the key rather than just post the code used to calculate it and let people do it themselves.
BTW am I the only one who can't actually read the complaint on that site? I just get blank pages.
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
Nope, not surprising at all since he distributed the ps3 private key for signing code, and he didn't even crack it, team fail0verflow did.
The ps3 is pretty much hacked now until sony issues completely new hardware.
Geohot was ok until he released private keys.
Also, this is totally unrelated to the psp.
Unrelated to the PSP, but related to the legality of hacking consoles . . .(did you read the thread?)
You can see they're suing him for violating the DMCA amongst other things - exactly what I was arguing about. Hacking your devices (IN THE US - before some idiot spouts up again and says it) is still illegal, regardless of whether or not you get caught.
Gamester doesn't understand the concept of a lawsuit.
All defendants have violated the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, 18 USC 1030(a)(2)(C) by intentionally accessing one of more PS3 systems - which consist of protected computers used for interstate commerce or communications - without authorization or by exceeding authorized access to the PS3 system, and by obtaining information from the PS3 System.
lol Sony is so full of shit
Originally Posted by GamesterXIII You're an idiot and you've proven this on more than one occasion.
Nice reasoning there.
Edited by Phredreeke
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
Hashes of keys were posted, not the actual keys itself.
Team fail0verflow explained how the metldr key could be decrypted just like they did with the lvl2 key which allowed them to run homebrew.
Anyway, the thread seems to go a little off topic by all this hot new psp/ps3 key news. Perhaps create a new topic for it?
GM's methods for creating their psp runtime is certainly questionable. And their probably not the only ones in the scene using this method. However in the end they bought the official devkit and acquired their license for publishing software on the platform. It's not like they're bypassing sony and started publishing directly on the psp, because that would certainly be wrong.
I don't really get the point of this thread, I think it's perfectly normal that the company wants to protect their users by making sure that decompiler doesn't get out. As for the psp, what the they did is legal, I thought it was pretty obvious. They wouldn't be so dumb to license a sony devkit and announce a psp port before if they were doing something illegal. In addition I don't see how clickteam would win anything if all your assumptions were true.
I'm pretty sure clickteam wish they had half yoyo games's userbase, and while I'm no game maker user I applaud their decision to release their product for free and make it available to everyone while clickteam doesn't. And whether or not yoyo games's contact with the community is worse than clickteam's is questionable. Also, if by "making dreams come true" you mean make games, then game maker does that too, without you having to pay for it.
Except (from my understanding anyway) it isn't Yoyo games decompiler, it was someone else who reverse engineered the executables of gamemaker games and wrote their own.
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
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GM has got already iOS exporter on the way is Android and PSP probably also MeeBoo but already someone menage to get the decompiler for iOS 
But their exporters are working on that way that only Yoyo Games has got access to them, so you can publish games only by them more precisely they are choosing what they want to publish.
You're supposed to bug us when things like that (don't) happen. 
Edited by OMC
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