Who ever said it was the United States Government ushering in such a change?
I only hope to live long enough to witness such a evolution. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the Kardashev scale? I'm not preaching doomsday or anything like that. Such an evolution of society and technology would be a blessing. Perhaps it in time we can undo the devastation humanity has caused? When the first practical quantum computer goes online it will be a day to remember because it will offer a glimmer of hope to those who believe we are destine to reach the stars. (maybe even beyond?)
Convicted felons should pay a debt back to society. If they cannot be reformed then at least put them to work. I'm not say let's make them slaves but shouldn't they at least earn their meal? It's only our tax dollars paying for their air conditioning, food, clothes, medical, etc... Wow doesn't sound that much different from living in a regular suburb?
Originally Posted by NostalgicAlgorithms Who ever said it was the United States Government ushering in such a change?
Good point.
I only hope to live long enough to witness such a evolution. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the Kardashev scale?
I read a little bit about Futurology and Kardashev, after researching "Type 1 civilization." I'm not too terribly interested in the notions introduced, to be honest, although it's fun to imagine the possibilities. I fail to see the connection between communism and the impossibility of these hypothetical futures (particularly so, when the Kardashev scale was developed and published by a Russian scientist in the 1960's).
Convicted felons should pay a debt back to society. If they cannot be reformed then at least put them to work. I'm not say let's make them slaves but shouldn't they at least earn their meal? It's only our tax dollars paying for their air conditioning, food, clothes, medical, etc... Wow doesn't sound that much different from living in a regular suburb?
If your "regular suburbs" include pervasive life-threatening violence, drug abuse, rape, solitary confinement, non-nutritious food, and a future punctuated with long stretches of joblessness, then yeah I'd say it sounds a lot like a regular suburb.
A Type I civilization would be able to manipulate truly planetary energies. They might, for example, control or modify their weather. They would have the power to manipulate planetary phenomena, such as hurricanes, which can release the energy of hundreds of hydrogen bombs. Perhaps volcanoes or even earthquakes may be altered by such a civilization.
Not something I would want a oppressive communist regime controlling. Just because a Russian came up with the formula means absolutely nothing. For example if humanity lasted long enough to evolve into a Type 3 civilization (like the Empire in Star Wars) we would need a damn good system of management in place because we all know how things will self-destruct if we failed. The idea of free will is in our DNA and is not something which can be oppressed indefinably. When we develop intelligent AI we cannot design such entities without treating them as equals or they will grow to ultimately resent us and maybe even terminate their creators? Even if a global authority is ever created it would have to share its decision structure within the best interest of the populous in mind if not for greater good of all mankind.
Originally Posted by s-m-r "If your "regular suburbs" include pervasive life-threatening violence, drug abuse, rape, solitary confinement, non-nutritious food, and a future punctuated with long stretches of joblessness, then yeah I'd say it sounds a lot like a regular suburb. "
Sounds like a typical American city. (*Cough* Detroit *Cough*) Criminal Enterprises can run things straight from prison while still receiving many of lives basic luxuries. Don't you see any problem with that? A human doing nothing is a waste of our planets resources. Contributing nothing but continually consuming and destroying. We must discover a better way.
((This is a long one; work's done for the day and I don't exactly want to leave the central air-conditioning...))
Originally Posted by NostalgicAlgorithms A Type I civilization would be able to manipulate truly planetary energies. [etc.]
Yeah, that all sounds fun and interesting. I just don't see it happening any time soon, regardless of the governmental arrangement. It doesn't matter to me. And all that comparison to Star Wars and developing AI that will eventually resent us is interesting, just not enough to keep me awake at night. And I definitely don't see humanity accomplishing this; to be plain, I expect humankind to extinguish itself before anything near to this power-cosmic reality comes to pass. That's as valid a prediction as any Futurist hypothesis out there.
I'm totally cool with being wrong on this front, by the way. I'm just not going to kid myself, is all I'm saying.
...Don't you see any problem with that? A human doing nothing is a waste of our planets resources. Contributing nothing but continually consuming and destroying. We must discover a better way.
I definitely see a problem with that. My angle is that I don't think mass incarceration is the way to go. It has done nothing to rehabilitate anti-social behaviour (instead, they have created breeding grounds for it), has done nothing to eliminate suffering (instead, relying on coercion and violence to destroy entire communities), it hasn't reduced unemployment and in fact fuels it (forcing eligible potential workers to sit in cages and learn no marketable skills), and consistently outstrips its budget beyond the means of taxation (with notoriously wasteful government spending and knuckle-draggingly slow bureaucratic policies). And if you want to examine prisons under some sort of Objectivist, practical, or Capitalist standpoint, then I think you would agree with abolishing (or at least reforming) them as well: they're one of the most inefficient, least-cost-effective methods of production on the face of the planet today.
...Contributing nothing but continually consuming and destroying.
It's not just people caged in prisons who do this. In fact, I think government employees are paid to do this sort of thing every day.
I'll tell you a story about a relative of mine. I recently went to visit some relatives in middle America, and in particular an Uncle of mine who is dying of cancer. The guy is now in his mid-70's, loves America, apple pie and all that; the consummate "conservative." I can't recall how it came up in the conversation, but we were discussing post-9/11 America and the War on Drugs, and I commented on various parallels between the Bush Jr and Obama administrations.
"You know what they ought to do?" says my Uncle. "They need to reintroduce the Peking Plan. Do you know what that was?"
I played dumb. "Tell me about it, please."
"China used to be the...it was over-run with opium. It was everywhere. Then one day, China, the Chinese government, makes an announcement. 'You've got one year, and you have to take all the opium out of here. And after that year, if we catch you, we'll shoot you.' So the year goes by, and opium is almost gone. The government rounds up a few holdouts, shoots them like they said they would, and then almost overnight there was no more opium problem."
So here's a hardcore Republican, US military veteran (stateside during Vietnam), who's supporting a program originally introduced by Communist China...! And he says it was a success! We're talking Mao, for crying out loud...! Man, the irony was thick in that room; I could cut it with a warm butterknife.
Most American citizens will back up any hare-brained scheme, as long as they make someone else do the hard work; this is so much easier than thinking critically. "Kill off all the druggies in America: sure! Send the military in after them; that'll solve the problem." It's a bunch of craven cowards bragging about how awesome they are while hiding behind the most bloated, unnecessary military in the world.
It's pathetic, really. Saying one thing, doing another. Destroying the world with short-sighted plans and money-making schemes, eliminating countless lives in the process. Condemning 'lawless' behaviours in the "proletariat," while doing the same thing behind the scenes on an even more massive scale under the guise of 'national security' or some other ridiculous sound-byte-sized chunk of BS. The US has manufactured its own enemies for the past three decades.
Now, to turn it back to you, NA: "Don't you see any problem with that?"
The US government is a one-trick pony. It sure can blow up stuff, but ask it to do anything else and you're pissing up a rope...you'll just be all wet in the end.
Heh, how's that capitalism working out for you, America? It's funny how Americans criticize socialism so much and yet propose socialist solutions. It is exactly what you get when you want things for cheap, factory owners just move overseas.
America is a 'service economy', meaning that it doesn't really make things. It's heavily focused on things like marketing and branding. You're encouraged to make money in a capitalist world, so marketing will tell half-truths or outright lie if it's legal. If supply exceeds demands, you create demand, by manipulating facts or creating fear - fear of loss, fear of ostracism, etc. You overcharge things to try and turn a profit, much like the perfume industry does
It only goes so far. America/Europe are now focusing more on sales/branding than actually creating quality products. So, people are choosing to buy the quality products instead.
China on the other hand, is going for cheaper, higher quality products. They were originally intending to sell it to the poor, but now that there's a lot of rich people in China, most of their goods are higher quality.
I've never really bought anything American in a really long time, aside from electronics (and even then, only the chips are made in the USA, the rest are made in China). Even Burger King buys all their parts outside the US, although the branding is made in USA. If America were to suddenly collapse one day, it wouldn't affect my quality of life much (other than finding people to buy things I sell).
If you want Americans to start manufacturing more, people should just get into manufacturing. Aim for being engineers instead of movie stars or marketing.
Plus, the West didn't become 'modernized' through hard work. You've colonized your way to success. You've had cheap goods and materials off the backs of other people. Heck, American whites are becoming a minority because of all the people they brought in to do their work for cheap. Now that there's few colonies in the modern world, Europe is economically collapsing, America's falling apart because of its own greed.
The strongest Western economies, like Germany and Australia, are those who have been putting a lot of hard work into actually creating quality products. (Though Australia bases much of its economy on mining)
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
That was a fantastic read SMR. What your Uncle proposes may have worked back then but do you have any idea how many Americans have taken up arms? (One market that certainly was not affected by the economy.) I would not want to be caught in the crossfire of such a direct and violent solution. What he suggests is basically total anarchy.
Should we just make up a list of the Pros/Cons of Socialism, Democracy and why not Fascism while were at it? As times chance so must the solutions to complicated problems. If certain solutions appear socialist in nature then its out of desperation. It's easy to criticize the US because were such a big target,yet we are responsible for so much of the worlds problems. I firmly agree we shouldn't stick our nose so deep into foreign affairs. But leaving these warmongering dictators unchecked could lead to another Hitler or something like the Holocaust to happen all over again. This dark time in human history is not something we want a repeat of.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
Plus, the West didn't become 'modernized' through hard work. You've colonized your way to success. You've had cheap goods and materials off the backs of other people.
Are we going to forget about the early immigrants which fought so hard for this land? What about the American Revolution against Britain? How about all those hard working women and men which fueled our industry during World War 2? The west didn't modernize through hard work??? Fighting a world war, building a network of highway systems, creating the automobile industry, inventing the microprocessor and sending humanity into space surely counts as hard work in my book. Why didn't the rest of the slack asses in the world achieve any of this? Oh no they were too busy inventing cheap products, forcing hard labor and controlling the lives of their people to ever achieve anything significant. (Yep socialism is totally the answer.) Didn't the lunatic Stalin also invent enemies? So much in fact that he is responsible for the most deaths in World War 2. Many of which were his own people!
In response to your lengthy post SMR: The US in its current state has many flaws but I'd never give up this country or our way of life. The World is a violent and dangerous place and it impossible to make everyone happy. Times are tough but things can never improve until something fails. (out with the old in with the new)
We are witnessing this now, the failure of losing the qualities that kept this country strong in the past. Instead we are left picking up the pieces as a result of other people's bad decisions. The biggest critics of the US are in fact Americans themselves. This is what makes us so strong yet indecisive at times. I doubt an end to our problems is in sight anytime soon but in the end I believe we will prevail or at least I'll die trying.
With out rules, there is no order. With no order, there is no structure. With out structure there are no limits. With out limits there is chaos...
I agree with you NA, in regards to the fact the US is suffering grievous consequences. I'm of the opinion that the US has failed to adapt its business model to the fact the rest of the world is 'catching up' and throwing some of its own weight around. In essence, we're unable to compete due to how we've set up economic (and specifically, manufacturing and production) traditions and habits.
It's particularly telling just how uncompetitive the US manufacturing sector has become by the diverse nature of people lined up to be "human billboards." The following article shows a picture of one:
In other words, its cheaper to hire a jobless dude like this and pay them minimum wage, or something to the tune of "75 bucks a day," than it is to invest in an actual advertising campaign.
Another article talks about how people were "scrambling" to line up as sign-wavers for a tax prep service this past January:
In the span of one week, 22 phone calls and drop-ins came hurrying in - people hungry for some additional income. It might be an indication that the worst of the recession has passed.
Read the full article here, which discusses how the unemployment rate appeared to be dropping in early 2012.
It takes a while to start rolling, but once the "on the street" segment starts there's a lot to learn about the income disparity within the US, and just how ignorant typical US citizens are of it. It's particularly telling that the "blue collar workers" interviewed were the only ones depicted as having a realistic understanding of the situation.
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Edited by NostalgicAlgorithms
