I'm not sure whether the Click community is just going dormant or dead, but it doesn't look good. No use denying that it's not getting worse.. it'll end up looking like #k&p one day at this rate. For those of you who don't know what #k&p is, that's another sign that the community is deteriorating
I'm not going to propose another crazy ultimate group project, because making a group project with strangers is like trying to build a castle out of sand.. with several people arguing about what a good castle would be like. Instead I think we all should do a few little things to get more people into the community. It works like a mini-donation.. if one person gives $1, it's nothing, but 500 people do, it's a lot.
First, the easiest and most direct way is to advertise MMF. I mean looking at all those 'How do you learn about MMF' posts, it looks like everyone learned about MMF through a demo or word of mouth. So, just put a little "Made with Multimedia Fusion (www.clickteam.com)" thingy in your walkthrough or at the end of your games. That was how the klik community really went off.. heck, it's why it's called the klik community! Remember those splash screens at the end of those KNP games? Even if you do make a crappy game, it'll help the community just a little.
The best way would be to make a proper game with MMF and work outside the Click Community. There's some talk about games not being worth the effort anymore. The thing is that we've gotten a little in-bred after all these years of having a stable community. Our klik games are only klik games. When a newb posts a decent one, all of a sudden people start criticizing him for not using custom platform engines, etc even if people from outside the community would find it a little fun.
The problem is that we've been making games to make games, not to make games. It became a kind of geek hobby a few years back, like robot building, but somewhere along the line we've come to the conclusion that it's the effort, not the result that's important. That's nice in concept, but c'mon.. nobody will play your games if you do that!
Work on making them proper games. We started with this hobby because we saw a game and wanted to make something like it. Let's go back to doing that. Make things for the sake of making them fun. Look at the Knytt games.. they're technically not all that special, but the sheer fun of the game gets it into newspapers, websites, magazines, wins awards.
And if you really, really want to make a fan game, at least add a little originality to it. Instead of making a 'Megaman game', invent your own character, with his own unique name, but plays like Megaman. Instead of a 'Pokemon game', invent a bunch of your own unique creatures and run everything like Pokemon
Also, like I said, expand outside the klik community. If you stay only in the klik community, or specifically on TDC, you'll never get above 100 downloads for your game. If you look at people who want games, you'll find tens of thousands of them. Look at all those Yahoo games! Most of us can make something like that, but since people don't find our games, they're willing to pay a bundle for the Yahoo games.
So, even if you don't think the community is dying.. just do a little to help it. At worst, do it for the sake of fame and for the gratitude of those of us who think that it's dying
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
It's exam period - maybe that explains the lack of activity?
I've also no idea why people are doing the whole "community is dying" thing again - it's been in worse states before.
adam you need to rid a bit more. im guessing you only posted based on the title. the thread isn't exclusively about the community dying. its about why people should be making games simply for the sake of making a fun game.
yes its partly aimed at the whole "dying community" thing. mostly, but not entirely.
i havent released a game since...never . (well there was kkm but people didnt seem to like the movement to well.) simply based on what you have said muz. we need more "fun" games. and i never find mine that fun to play. the only reason im still here is because i learn a lot from the forums, and learn by helping out some of the noobs.
i also agree with flava that its partly because everyone has school. but flava, people have always had school and exams, yet it still seems to be slowing down more than usual.
People are clearly noticing something here, but what is it?
lack of content?
not as many members posting on the forums?
less click sites to choose from?
less well known members?
i'd like to think the community is still in a healthy state at the moment, and TDC itself is getting new members every now and then. Maybe people just wish things were like they were in 1996?
However it's best to enjoy things whilst they last instead of wishing for more. The community isn't going to disappear tomorrow, so lets make games for fun, like Muz says ^^
I don't have time to read the whole thing, but I do know that I've spent the last six years scheming how to remove TGF ads from my games... I'm not about to add them. Not that kliking is shrinking... but if it were, I'd be all the more happy! The tools are powerful enought to make awesome stuff, and we'd be set apart by being part of the few able to do it! I'm sure Clickteam hates my outlook... the smaller the community, the easier it is to know people and get stuff done. (To a point.) The larger it is, the harder it is to get wrapped up in using it because of the overwhelming size of people posting. Ever seen freewebs' community boards? Yep... ridiculous. And even if TDC were dying, that's no sign that klik is. I had TGF for years before I was finally able to sign up here. I had another thing to say, but I lost it...
In the past there were loads of community sites and more dedication towards maintaining them. Now there are two - Total Klik and TDC. TK is a shell with little content and updates are extremely rare, while TDC isn't doing too well in the motivational front either lol (I'm fired now, right Rikus?)
Things have changed, there's no denying it, but I think that we gamemakers have become too competitive with each other. I mean, 10 years ago there were never any majorly hyped up games. Eternal Daughter started the trend and everyone looked forward to it, and so many klikkers now feel compelled to make the best possible game they can. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but this takes time, and henceforth fewer games are released.
I agree with Chris. I've always tried for big games in the past. Now i have one big game in the works, but i took time out to create a small game for the 20 event contest. It's pretty simple: only 8 events, it doesn't take long to make that at all. The graphics are simply whipped up in Photoshop. The only tedius part was making masks for collisions and different friction levels. After that i just let people test it and made a pleasant menu system. Overall, the game didn't take long to make and i personally think it came out ok, even though it's a bit harsh on the player in terms of how easy it is to die.
Anyway, the way I see this site/clicking is like a secret club. It feels kinda special! But it's not the kind of secret club that doesn't let anyone in, it just takes some twist of fate to find.
We get some nice games coming in every so often, we have a number of active members, and I've seen a fair few new faces around here recently. I don't mind if there aren't as many games or members as there could be, things go at a nice pace here and there's not too much to keep track of. You'll rarely miss anything worthwhile here That's one thing I've come to enjoy.
Imho the problem is the MMO get the elite guild mentality. There are people around here with great skills, then there's others with great ideas. The community isn't dead just it's a pass time for many of us with adult responsibilities and who use other computer languages for school/work etc.
I myself use this site for inspiration, and I love it
For instance, I've enjoyed clicking an awful lot, but I'm 22, realistically thinking about getting married, I have a job (in accounts, lol, not exactly rivetting) and an extremely busy social life.
So realistically my clicking days are numbered, and I just don't have the imagination anymore. There's too much else going on, I don't get time to play games, so I don't have the fuel to make them.
But at the same time, I'm at my prime in terms of technical ability with MMF, even recently I've learned so much.
I think the point I'm ambling vaguely towards is that we need newbies. Clicking's like a conveyor, and let's face it - a lot of us who've been around since the 90's are now just about ready to drop off the end. For most of us, life does catch up eventually.
So yeah, I think advertising the click community, especially with any kids we personally know (children of friends, younger siblings, etc) is a good idea. Perhaps more emphasis on the spirit of a game than its technical prowess?
Or maybe I'm rambling. Anyways, I wanna make a game! Leave me alone!
Sorry for the double-post, but I just noticed something really quite dangnably cool!
Top Rated Articles
----------------------
Anyone Can An.. 4.4 - Mine
Bézier Curves.. 4.25 - Mine
How Spread Va.. 4.25 - Mine
Creating inte.. 4.25
Embedded Coll.. 4.1
Artificial In.. 4.1 - Mine
Making a game.. 4.1
How to use TD.. 4.1
Making a Pret.. 4.05 - Mine
Making a game.. 4.05
Muz's Guide t.. 4.05
AI - Line of .. 4.05
The every eve.. 4
Perceived Goo.. 4
Pixel Art For.. 4
Woo. Nifty. Makes me feel a lot better given the whole soon-to-fall-off-the-conveyor thing. At least I'll have a legacy when I do go one day
Super-shrug. I don't think it's dying at all. If anything I just think TDC, as a site, is stagnating. We get these little updates every so often but maybe we just need a giant overhaul. A frontpage that cycles through "adverts" for click games. Say the top 100 rated or so games each have a user created graphic. A downloads section thats more clearly set out for games, demos, apps. Some markup to load little music players so we can play music without having to download (do it in Flash). A shake up of moderators could be nice, it seems like we only have 2 or 3 active mods. Get some new mods who aren't busy with college or university even if its just someone who can update the polls, GotW etc.
Usage of MMF is far from declining. A big update please. Dare I say... ditch Mitch.
You're probably right James, it's just all of that takes a hell of a lot of work. I agree that the site somewhat needs an overhaul, but it just depends whether or not it is feasible to do so, and whether it's really worth our time (would it really increase activity that much? I'm not sure).
But I do agree about messing around with the admin/mod team - we've discussed the idea for the last few months, but haven't really gone about doing it yet for one reason or another. We'd have to discuss how we'd go about hiring new admins too - although we have a lot of regulars here, in my opinion only a small fraction would be mature and responsible enough to actually take an admin position.
I may bring it up some what, but like I've said before, I'm concentrating on my exams which only last 4 weeks now - so after that I can hopefully put a lot of my time into the DC from then on, whether it be competitions, GOTW, new admins .etc.
There are times when we're allowed to be a little immature
It's just, you know, a lot of this community includes people who are far far more immature than any of the admins.. That's just my opinion
I'm not just talking about maturity, the majority of the current admins on TDC are completely inefficient and somewhat biased, that's why it seems so crap at times.
And if you want examples:
Admins using this place like their little god-station, where they can have their last say on a thread and lock it, when sometimes their "last say" is a very personal opinion and a lot of people may not agree with. It's like saying something and running away, really pathetic.
Admins warning people when they don't even read half of what's going on, or haven't even been active on the site for a good 3 months- this really pisses me off, it's like you don't even do your job properly yet you still have the admin status- how and why?
EDIT: Admins BADLY EDITING POSTS. Ive noticed this especially when Phizzy's posts are deleted, there's still other posts refering to his, and containing abusive/argumentative comments, from where only half the argument has been deleted.
Rikus is the only one who updates the news page nowadays, and even though its often, it's just news on the downloads and project's Ive already seen about 5 hours before him because he lives in Canada.
To be honest I think it could be so much more professional.
On a final note, why are the admins at this level? I mean, what have they done CLICK-WISE to earn admin levels. I think it's important to a certain extent,that admins should have had some successful history with click products. I mean, if their passion is not that visible in clicking, why are they admins on a click-community site?
Btw Adam linked me here - hence my visit, since leaving.
But anyway, just to remind you all, www.klikbox.net is still open for anyone that wants to start creating a new community - featuring everything that people think TDC lacks or whatever.
It's a really good domain name (imo) and someone could put it to really good use. So let me know?
Oh, and another thing. All this crap about the community dying.. if people really are leaving, it's because the admins have done nothing to make it a happier place for them. It's down to the admins to resolve problems, help people and update people, in order to keep the community thriving, so it's pretty Ironic you made this thread, Muz
Originally Posted by Flava You're probably right James, it's just all of that takes a hell of a lot of work.
I completely understand, sorry if my original post sounded a little harsh on you guys. Hell I can't find the time to overhaul my own site let alone something big like this, and I'm not even at uni any more!
I'm honestly getting tired of defending the point that the K. Com is dying. It's pretty damn obvious. You can say TDC is dying. Honestly, people keep saying that every time I make a post like this. I take note of who does. And every single time I do, half of those people are no longer here. Give me the name of any klik site that still exists. I'll bet you that they haven't been updated in a month. TDC? Barely any downloads, compared to the older days when there were at least 2 new downloads every day. Heck, these days unfinished games are making the front page.
It is in a bad state. I do miss when there was an abundance of games to pick from or when there were enough people for chat rooms to exist. It's not necessarily bad.. no more bullies anymore, aside from those who over-estimate their influence
Big games aren't the problem either. I've got a very tough project in the works, which I expect to be completed in 2 or 3 months, so that's no excuse. And really.. while there are a lot more projects with big games, not many are seeing light of day. I think big projects really hurt everything though, because it turns a hobby into work
Adam:
Admins can only do so much to help. Like I've said, all of us doing one tiny bit like putting a link to Clickteam in the game's readme would help alot more than all the admins making TDC a happier place by making contests or kewl skins or giving a vapourware demo front page coverage.
Also, I have to defend admins a little there. It is as professional as it can get under the conditions. A lot of good admins like Pete Nattress, ShadowCaster, Broomie have left the community or are being pretty damn dormant. Most people were elected not as a result of their kliking experience, but for maturity (being neutral) on TDC and just some passion for the community. All of them have done a lot of good on TDC and elsewhere. So far, I've been the most controversial of the admins so you really can't judge everyone else because of me
But also, like I said, even the admins are getting old. Hiring another 20+ year old kliker won't make a difference because most of us are busy with uni, work, starting a new family. Which is what worries me.. there's no more preteen newbs or senior citizens entering the community. I expect half of the people to stop kliking at about the age of 23-35, which is resulting in the condition we see today. I know I won't stop kliking, but I still want some people who truly appreciate the effort I put into my games when I do release something nice.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Originally Posted by -Adam- "Admins can only do so much to help"
Yeah, making one or two news posts every 5 months deserves a "Best admin of the year" award, I'm sure.
Dude, you have to learn to rid whole paragraphs! (even if they do ramble)
/me points out the declining rate of submissions yet again, points out again how admins are getting into the 'klik-quitting age', which points to the topic of the thread.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I'm talking about the lack of basic administration, I don't expect anything extreme or more than usual, but we're not even getting that. At the moment all the work is down to two admins, and even then they're both too busy to do much.
Admins are all still doing this in our free time, we are getting older and time is sparse, i disgaree with adam (who has been really bitter and gloomy lately), we are doing the best we can under the situation but i think some people underestimate what it is like being a admin, its for sure going to piss people of no mather what you do or do not do, I do agree something needs to change, i do not think a new admin will change all that much but and i have been trying to talk to club about this but we are both so frickin busy, what it comes down to i think the dc needs to commercialize a bit more and work closer with clickteam to get that new fresh user base, what this means i'm not sure about yet, but this has been on my mind, something needs to happen (paid subscription for extra content like to have space for your pics and games and other nifty special extras, selling a klickdisc on the site or even clickteam products) or else i'm afraid things will just slowly move to the background even for me it might not be worth the time to keep updating this place.
But i think me the admins club and clickteam need to talk to eachother about this,
Be sure to follow us on the twitters for the latest and greatest: @dailyclick
I think it would be a good idea to discuss what can be done to get more members on board. It would probably be best to to target people we know already own TGF or MMF2 on other free ware sites. Maybe even try to encourage a few ex members to pop in once in a while (Noodle, Hayo etc)
Lets not forget the members than visit the site but don't bother with the forums.
The problem isn't TDC itself, it's the click products.
I do remember the good old times when lets's say at least 80% of every freeware game was made with TGF or whatever, and now I can barely find any while visiting sites like Caiman.
Countless other tools are popping in and clickteam is loosing the boat, sometimes I wonder how the hell is it possible that 5 or so old and experienced individuals that work on MMF2 as their fulltime jobs can do so few when for example construct which is run by a 20 or so year old in his part-time while in uni is getting updated so quickly.
Like I said in a previous thread, selling the same product with diferent names and small updates over 15 years isn't a flawless strategy.
i like how people who recently left are popping into this thread. seeee its working!!! lol
oh and admin cecil!!! i would rule all with an iron fist!!!
just puttin that out there.
n/a
Assault Andy Administrator
I make other people create vaporware
Registered 29/07/2002
Points 5686
24th May, 2008 at 23:26:42 -
Originally Posted by -Cakemonkey- I find it very ironic that the forums that are discussing if TDC is dead or not wind up pages long in a relativly short amount of time.
I agree
Maybe we should hold one of those "Make a game in 1 hour" competition. Those are fun! And we'll get some games really quickly.
On the discussion revolving the administration, you can not please everybody and I would hope that you guys never expect to try and do that. With that said, I would like to applaud Rikus and the others for keeping this site up as long as they have when many sites have died. That alone is something worth being proud of and I respect you guys for that. You may have a point Adam, but just know that you would not even be able to express your opinion in the first place if it were not for those same people who take the time out of THEIR DAILY LIVES just so that people like you can have a place to go to. I believe your heart is in the right place, but somewhere along that path you have forgotten something. You have forgotten that these people do not owe you anything and yet they are still here and so is the site.
As someone who is rarely on here, I do agree with some of what has been said. No matter who it is, I do believe seeing new faces in a community can be a good thing. At the same time you should not let that stop you from making games. I believe what Muz was trying to say is that the community should take some steps in making this a better environment one at a time. Not by blaming one group, but by everyone having a role and playing their part. There are plenty of people on here who have a good amount of knowledge on how one would go about making a game and actually finishing it. Those people need to step up and help the ones who may not know what to do. Everyone should be willing to help one another or give that extra word of advise. I say that if you truly want to make this a better place then you can start on that by being a better person towards everybody else, because it's not going to happen on its own and it's not going to happen by pointing a finger at somebody else.
"Adam, but just know that you would not even be able to express your opinion in the first place if it were not for those same people who take the time out of THEIR DAILY LIVES just so that people like you can have a place to go to."
So do the Clickteam staff, the Tigsource staff and I'm sure many other forum staff, that don't put up with the crap TDC takes. You can't use that "THEY'RE USING THEIR FREE TIME BLAH BLAH BLAH" excuse because if they're admins, it should be an honor and an enjoyable job along side the click hobby, not a grueling task they don't really want to do.
Originally Posted by -Adam- "Adam, but just know that you would not even be able to express your opinion in the first place if it were not for those same people who take the time out of THEIR DAILY LIVES just so that people like you can have a place to go to."
So do the Clickteam staff, the Tigsource staff and I'm sure many other forum staff, that don't put up with the crap TDC takes. You can't use that "THEY'RE USING THEIR FREE TIME BLAH BLAH BLAH" excuse because if they're admins, it should be an honor and an enjoyable job along side the click hobby, not a grueling task they don't really want to do.
I gave a legitimate explanation as to why they are unable to do as much. Now if you can not sympathize with that, then go ahead and make up what ever you want that suites your agenda. If you had looked outside of the box you would realize that not everyone has the leisure to always be on here like you. It is obvious to me that you have taken the little things for granted and because of that, this debate on my behalf is over.
Muz suggested that everyone start advertising, and I agree that everyone should do SOMETHING to benefit the community. However, when all you can do is come up with a conclusion that results in bickering well then you will get in return more bickering. What I'm saying is yeah we can say it's the admins fault, because it's the easy thing to do... OR we can start solving the problem today by telling more people about click team, being generous towards everyone on the site, and making better games for people to play. I challenge you Adam to forget what you have against the admins in this thread and come up with something positive that can help this be a better place.
A lot of good admins like Pete Nattress, ShadowCaster, Broomie have left the community or are being pretty damn dormant.
I haven't really left the community, I still pop by every now and again to see how things are going. I do appreciate you calling me a good admin, even though I was only in power for about 4 months and thought I could have put a lot more effort in to the job but when you lose interest in the hobby it's hard to keep interest in the site as well. Still like to make games though, so I haven't completely lost faith in indie gaming. In fact, Space Quest 2 is nearly finished, a remake of the 16 color adventure by Sierra. Shameless plug I know, but I still like to update where I can.
Peblo Custom ratings must be 50 characters or less
Registered 05/07/2002
Points 185
25th May, 2008 at 19:26:09 -
Haha, I like how the most depressing topics are the most popular ones.
TDC's getting boring for a great number of people because it's staying the same. Circy's been a mod here for years, and it's getting boring teasing him. The same members stir up the same shit about the same times of the year, almost down to the day (we pretty much could make our own TDC holidays around them). Not that stirring up shit is bad all the time, it's just getting boring fighting the same battles. I've seen all these members around here all the time, and I can guess what people will post even before they post; what's the point in posting anymore?
A cycle of admins, topics, members, game ideas, attitudes toward game creation, and TDC layout would be all great, but I'm thinking most of them might be unrealistic. It should be an equal effort between members and admins to keep the site alive, and right now I think that infighting between the two groups won't help anything. So at least, can we stop that?
"Isn't it always amazing how we characterize a person's intelligence by how closely their thinking matches ours?"
~Belgarath
I think another problem is that People don't discuss the actual klik hobby enough- the only place to discuss the progress of a game is in the project forums,which seem quite separate from these. I'd like to see more discussing of artwork and coding/gameplay and music in the main forums, and less shit like I post about what I ate for breakfast (yes, I'm admitting I post some crap) Basically more devlog threads, much like the Tormishire one and such.
Originally Posted by -Adam- I think another problem is that People don't discuss the actual klik hobby enough- the only place to discuss the progress of a game is in the project forums,which seem quite separate from these. I'd like to see more discussing of artwork and coding/gameplay and music in the main forums, and less shit like I post about what I ate for breakfast (yes, I'm admitting I post some crap) Basically more devlog threads, much like the Tormishire one and such.
That sounds about right. I think the problem is that all activity on this site is centered around the forums. Relatively few people ever visit the other sections, so the actual game-related discussion is always kept off the main forum. One way to fix this problem would be to move everything to the forums, like separate sub-forums for downloads, articles and projects, so people would create their own threads for their games or articles. I can't see that happening though, it just wouldn't be TDC anymore. Maybe someone should just start a new click site, with only a front page and a forum. Sort of like TIGSource/TIGForums?
I see two main problems, this site is more like a chatting ground for a lot of us now - face it most people aren't even working on games right now. That and the fact that we have no new people... Even just two years ago (about when I joined up here) this place was booming compared to now, I felt so small like this was a huge site that had so many games, I remember when we had 15 games in GOTW - it didn't matter if they sucked or were nooby - they were still fun. Now, it feels like I know everyone on this site at least partially - it just feels empty, there are no new users who discover TGF on a magazine and find TDC to post their games - just new people who have to be so determined to stick around and endure the crap newbies get put through and older members who are either making big games or not making games at all.
Click isn't dead, the CT forums have plenty of new people - we need to get them here. As much as I used to dislike the idea of putting MMF logos in my games, it seems like a good idea - I mean big names like Nifflas put it in and it gets players to check it out if nothing else.
The community isn't DYING but it's definitely not what it used to be (and I'm not even an ancient member here, I was 4 in 1996).
Also, I have no problem with the administration here - though news is a bit whacked out... We don't need every game submitted on the front page of the site! When a game hit the front page it used to be an honour - now it's just "oh another game".
Longest post I've done in a while - mainly because I'd like to see things change.
Originally Posted by Dr. James Hello Hayo, welcome back if you're staying
Lol, if I got Hayo to come back, posting this thread was worth it
Oh, and Adam, I don't see the Game Builder site being updated much, lol
Edited by an Administrator.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
My plan:
Try to get my friends, and cousins to start klicking, and to join this site.
Good idea for new members:
I know most new people are noobs, but serously, instead of flaming them and calling them noobs for using the custom platform engine, actually help them, dont yell at them. after all, this is one of the reasons why I waited so long to become a member in the first place.
If people do this more ^ then more new people might actually come, and even better, they might stay. I mean, even if it doesnt last, were is the harm in trying?
Your just jealous that you're not as awesome as me.
(And my megaman avatar )
Originally Posted by MacAdaM I know most new people are noobs, but serously, instead of flaming them and calling them noobs for using the custom platform engine, actually help them, dont yell at them. after all, this is one of the reasons why I waited so long to become a member in the first place.
Actually, I remember being flamed a lot when I did start off. I have to thank Derek Yu and Jon Perry of Blackeye Software for guiding me to building a website and starting off back in the days when klik wasn't really much of a community (Also, they did guide me to MMF.. it wasn't for them, I'd be using GameMaker or RPGMaker *shudders*)
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Make an advertisment video/image,
and get everyone to put it at the beginning of their games.
You could even just take the content from the Clickteam site...
"Multimedia Fusion is the most flexible, powerful, and full-featured authoring tool available today. Best of all, you can get superior and impressive results with no programming skills or knowledge required. Discover the secret..."
If done right it would interest people in MMF more than a "made with MMF" banner.
Originally Posted by ~Zigzag~ Trouble with making games is its either Easy or Fun, rarely ever both. That's why I never release any.
My problem is I'm ashamed of my projects before i even finish them. Thus I'm only able to complete a game if there's a time limit, like in a competition for example.
Advertisement
Post Reply
. (well there was kkm but people didnt seem to like the movement to well.) simply based on what you have said muz. we need more "fun" games. and i never find mine that fun to play. the only reason im still here is because i learn a lot from the forums, and learn by helping out some of the noobs.
Edited by the Author.
