So it's set for 8th May then - who do you plan on voting for? Do you plan voting at all. I think it's going to be very close this year.
In the past I've always voted Liberal Democrat in local and European elections, but this is the first General Election I'm voting in. At the moment I'm flittering between LD and Green, although I'm not actually sure the Greens are putting forward a candidate in my constituency (which would make my mind up somewhat). I think Labour have strayed too far from their left-wing roots, and conversely I think a lot of people are put off by the Tories stumble from the right. It's hard to vote with principles when the two major parties are so idealistically similar. If there were such a party, I would vote for an Old Labour party, very much in favour of nationalisation, unions and social welfare, but unfortunately there isn't (and it leaves a lot of people without a party they feel they can vote for).
There's a decent site for those who are trying to differentiate between the parties at http://voteforpolicies.org.uk/ - it's not scientific, and it seems to have a fairly big bias towards the Greens, but it's a good way of getting the information compared from all sides.
For those oldies around here; I remember me starting one in 2005 for the general election then, I've searched and it's here: http://www.create-games.com/forum_post.asp?id=117485 - it's interesting how we all point out Labour's excellent economic running of the country (arf!).
Come back Tony! All is forgiven!
Seriously though, he was the best PM we've had in ages, and it's just a shame that he was given such a hard time (and ultimately forced to resign) over something that was entirely Bush's fault (despite what they may claim, I'm sure any governement would have backed the US).
Anyway, I'm not voting, for various reasons:
1.) Only Labour & Conservatives have any chance of winning, and both have much the same policies (or lack thereof) on the big issues.
2.) There's no guarantee that the person elected as PM will still be the PM in a weeks time. In my mind, Gordon Brown has never been anything more than a "caretaker-PM", as he was not (and never would have been) elected, and this country is supposed to be a democracy.
Anyway, the reason I'm mentioning this now, is that if Brown does win, he will certainly not last another full term (and may be forced to resign much sooner).
3.) My vote doesn't make a difference. Noone ever won an election by a single vote, and whether or not I vote, has no effect of whether anyone else votes.
Incidentally, that voteforpolicies.co.uk thing put me at: 33% UKIP, 22% LibDem, 22% Green, 11% Cons, 11% Labour, although I'd actually be more of an old-school conservative if such a thing still existed.
Originally Posted by Sketchy Come back Tony! All is forgiven!
Seriously though, he was the best PM we've had in ages, and it's just a shame that he was given such a hard time (and ultimately forced to resign) over something that was entirely Bush's fault (despite what they may claim, I'm sure any governement would have backed the US).
Anyway, I'm not voting, for various reasons:
1.) Only Labour & Conservatives have any chance of winning, and both have much the same policies (or lack thereof) on the big issues.
2.) There's no guarantee that the person elected as PM will still be the PM in a weeks time. In my mind, Gordon Brown has never been anything more than a "caretaker-PM", as he was not (and never would have been) elected, and this country is supposed to be a democracy.
Anyway, the reason I'm mentioning this now, is that if Brown does win, he will certainly not last another full term (and may be forced to resign much sooner).
3.) My vote doesn't make a difference. Noone ever won an election by a single vote, and whether or not I vote, has no effect of whether anyone else votes.
Incidentally, that voteforpolicies.co.uk thing put me at: 33% UKIP, 22% LibDem, 22% Green, 11% Cons, 11% Labour, although I'd actually be more of an old-school conservative if such a thing still existed.
I always think that people who trot out the old 'doesn't make a difference whether I vote or not' are far too egotistical to imagine that their vote is one of millions - "I'm not going to have a direct say, so I'm going to say nothing at all". It's basically suggesting democracy isn't good enough for you. The whole philosophy by which the country is run, and a huge majority of the world, isn't good enough. The principles which many people have worked, fought and ultimately died for, aren't good enough for you. But that's okay, if we ever come under a military dictatorship, we'll know who to turn to.
Incidentally, at the last election there was 61% turnout. Think about that. 39%, which is larger than any percentage of vote for any single party, didn't vote for anyone. If all those people voted there could be a new PM in charge, there could be entirely different parties in charge. But that seems to pass people by.
I don't understand why apparently intelligent people have trouble understanding this...
Democracy is good for the population as a whole, but voting is never a good thing for the individual - it's like ants/bees sacrificing themselves for the good of the colony.
Obviously not voting is a little selfish, but I don't know how you get from that to "It's basically suggesting democracy isn't good enough for you", or what military dictatorships have to do with anything - you're just being ridiculously melodramatic.
Personally, I can't stand people acting all high-and-mighty about voting, as if it makes them some kind of model citizen, or as if they're making a difference to society. If you actually went out campaigning for a party or something, then maybe I'd have a bit more respect, but voting is just sheep mentality.
The fact that 39% of people didn't vote is not relevant to anything - me voting is not going to make any one else vote (otherwise I could just lie and tell people I was going to vote, and it would have exactly the same effect).
Well i'm voting even if it's just me and Boothman (joke!) - i want that cod-eyed cretin Brown out before he wrecks this country any more and gets it further into debt and the best way for that to happen is to get out there and vote Tory. I ain't a Tory (my vote changes to suit my mood) though they are the main opposition this time and i want Brown out more than any other 'leader'. As for Blair and last election's manifesto, with the excellent lie "vote for use and have a referrendum on the EU", just goes to show what an a$$hole he was too.
Under Labour the main benefactors in this country are criminals, people who don't want to work, foreign nationals, bent politicians and unionists.
For the eople who work hard and want to make something out of life, we are the ones taxed the hardest to pay for those in the list above.
Originally Posted by Sketchy I don't understand why apparently intelligent people have trouble understanding this...
Democracy is good for the population as a whole, but voting is never a good thing for the individual - it's like ants/bees sacrificing themselves for the good of the colony.
Obviously not voting is a little selfish, but I don't know how you get from that to "It's basically suggesting democracy isn't good enough for you", or what military dictatorships have to do with anything - you're just being ridiculously melodramatic.
Personally, I can't stand people acting all high-and-mighty about voting, as if it makes them some kind of model citizen, or as if they're making a difference to society. If you actually went out campaigning for a party or something, then maybe I'd have a bit more respect, but voting is just sheep mentality.
The fact that 39% of people didn't vote is not relevant to anything - me voting is not going to make any one else vote (otherwise I could just lie and tell people I was going to vote, and it would have exactly the same effect).
Basically if your argument against voting is that 'My single vote will have no meaningful effect on the result", then this is basically going against what democracy is; the representation of a people by its individual members on a one person one vote basis. And the only alternative to democracy is dictatorship. I'm not being needlessly melodramatic, I'm pointing out the obvious flaws in your thinking. Your analogy to a bee sacrificing itself for the colony is complete bollocks as voting in an election is not a self-destructive act. You aren't being asked to fight, to kill yourself, to harm yourself or even majorly inconvenience yourself. You are asked to give your opinion.
And forgive me for sounding high and mighty about voting; I am far from a model citizen, but when 39% of the electorate decline to vote, but yet still moan about the society and the government, aren't the other 61% entitled to say "Well it's your own fucking fault?". If you want change then you change from the inside out, that's the only way.
And I know that you don't think you have any major effect on other people voting but yourself, but if I convinced you that voting was worthwhile (and essential), then wouldn't you maybe tell other people and convince them? And wouldn't any children you have be brought up with that message? I remember in the local elections a couple of years ago I had this same argument with people, and they came around to my thinking eventually, and they voted. That was three people who before wouldn't have used their right to have a voice.
And forgive me for sounding high and mighty about voting; I am far from a model citizen, but when 39% of the electorate decline to vote, but yet still moan about the society and the government, aren't the other 61% entitled to say "Well it's your own fucking fault?".
Agreed
My girlfriend moans about things like prices going up, wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (which i support, btw) and other stuff like that and i ask her "who did you vote for again?", to which she replies "no-one", and i say "well people like you missed a trick there then!"
Actually Sketchy, if there was a more old-school Tory party around still, i'd vote for them too!
As it happens, democracy has an awful lot of flaws. It's very hard to get anything done because of all the squabbling, and dumb/evil people have just as big a say as intelligent/good people. Ideally, we would have a dictatorship, with a smart & good dictator - unfortunately, in practice, people like Hitler tend to end up as dictators instead. Anyway, I'll concede that democracy is probably the best we have, right now.
Voting is not a major inconvenience, but it is an inconvenience none the less, with zero reward (apart from the warm fuzzy feeling of self-righteousness which some people seem to get from it).
You have the right to blame the 39% of non-voters as a whole, but you cannot single out any one specific person. Really, who are you going to blame for the current economic crisis - me, because I didn't vote last time; or Gordon Brown who was the PM/Chancellor?
Why would it help to tell everyone I meet, to vote?
They won't all vote for the same party - they'll vote in much the same way as the general population, and therefore won't affect the results, however many of them there are.
I could try and make them vote for the same party as me, but that implies that I believe my opinion is more important than theirs (which goes against the principle of a democracy), and I don't have a strong opinion anyway.
Of course, if you want to vote, I'm certainly not trying to convince you otherwise.
You have the right to blame the 39% of non-voters as a whole, but you cannot single out any one specific person. Really, who are you going to blame for the current economic crisis - me, because I didn't vote last time; or Gordon Brown who was the PM/Chancellor?
I blame Brown and not my girlfriend. Man i so hope he gets booted out come May!
I don't need you to post a list from Wikipedia, Sketchy. There aren't "many many forms of government". There are two. Rule by collective choice of everyone, or rule by will of a few. Dress them up with different name if you will but they boil down to those two ideas. Of course there could be anarchy, but that's leave that aside as that isn't a form of government.
Voting itself does not have any reward, but the debate of politics, the sharing of ideas, generally having a voice does. It's not an instant gratification, but I'm not that shallow that I judge every action by its immediate reward. I feel it would be a logical fallacy to debate any kind of politics without using my vote (even if it was just a spoilt ballot, which is an entirely different matter). And the inconvenience really is small. There will be a polling station probably within a mile of your house (if you live in a fairly urban area).
I'm not blaming the 39% for the situation we are in, but I am tired of people having fairly strong opinions about it and then not bothering to vote. And maybe if those 39% did vote their views might not be those of the established parties, (as voting tendencies and turnout vary dramatically with age group, gender, race etc). Who's to say that the 39% would be split exactly the same way as the current electorate. By that token, we could have 10 people voting over the whole country, it wouldn't matter because 'they'll vote the same way as the general populace'.
Anyway, I'm done discussing the merits and necessities of voting. It's up to you to declare yourself above the 'petty squabbling' of democracy.
"The rule of the few" is not the same as "dictatorship", which is what you claimed.
If we could have a "rule of the intelligent & moral few", then wouldn't that be better than "the rule of the many"? It doesn't have to be a military dictator.
Not voting, and not taking any interest in politics, are two very different things. I was very clearly only talking about voting itself.
And stop patronizing me with phrases like "above the petty squabbling of democracy".
Vote if you want to vote, but don't act like it makes you anything special.
I can't accept any argument against voting, or the "my vote makes no difference" sort of thinking. Perhaps I have an odd way of looking at this, but my reasoning is based on chaos theory. We are a self-organising body, we humans self organise most of the time. It means that every small part of a massive system has a perpetuating effect, it's the only way a self organising body can work. We aren't controlled by a central authority on the matter of voting at least. Arguing that it's not worth voting can encourage others that it's not worth it and this idea perpetuates. It suits the lazy person. If you don't think any party is suitable then you have the opportunity to say so, just put a big cross through your ballot paper and be done with it. The only reason you can have for not showing up on election day is that you are a lazy and/or ignorant, that or you really can't make it for medical reasons or other, but you can register to vote by post. It's not high and mighty, it just makes sense. Don't be stupid.
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