I voted Lib Dem too but i have to say i am glad Paul Rowen is out. Never did like him too much and he has done bugger all for Rochdale recently. I know i used to work in the council offices and it was a pain in the arse getting anything done. he is the reason rochdale council are having to slash spending by £100m!!
@Marko: I kind of suspected this result would turn out, unfortunately. I was expecting more turnout to other parties as well, not it to be a 2 (or 3) horse race.
@Matt: I did employ the proviso of them keeping the country afloat, something the Labour party I believe has failed badly at (whether the Tories would have fared better is another question but I think anyone could have done better ). Plus how exactly has Brown sheltered us? We are pretty much the hardest hit country out of the G20 developed nations. I do kind of agree with you on a fundamental level though, about no party being particularly suited for the job.
Records from 20 years ago (and more) are always important, it allows us to compare what is happening now to past events like the last economic dip at the end of the 80s. More data is always a good thing for an engineer or scientist. It would be like analysing global temperature trends with 5 years of data, completely pointless.
@Rob: My bad on the redbrick's, I did kind of get bored writing and reading and assumed he was, either that or Oxbridge material. I personally dislike career politicians (from any party any level), as I believe they are lacking sufficient life experience (and thus common sense) and I would like to see more engineers and people that have actually worked for a living in the commons in all parties.
This may be an engineer's perspective and I mean no offence to anyone with such degrees (one of the toilets in the engineering faculty does have "Art Degrees" written on the toilet roll dispenser, so it is definitely a stigma we do attach to anyone bar engineers ) but I personally fail to see how a person with an English degree (etc) that has never been out into the world and worked has any insight on running a country, and I think a lot of people in the commons fall into this category.
I went to an inner city school and college/sixth form and I have always done quite well academically - level 7's on sats, mostly A's on GCSE/A level, a 1st on my undergrad degree, distinction on my MSc and I was asked back for my PhD I did not apply for it . I have done a fair bit of work though, I used to repair Bluetooth headsets part time while doing my UG degree, and I was in R&D for some time before returning to academia.
Oddly enough my GF is an ardent socialist but we get on great. Can not figure out if its proof of opposites attract or that I may be a closet socialist
Rob Rule:
Hagar is right - Brown has not "kept our heads above water". It really couldn't have gone much worse than it did - only two countries in the world have been hit harder than the UK - Greece and Iceland.
Plus, he *caused* the problem in the first place - remember, the global crisis came about as a result of sub-prime lending, which was basically a US / UK activity.
Anyone who will listen:
The rest of the world must find all this truly baffling.
I mean, here we are trying to spread democracy in places like Afghanistan, and not only do we make a mess of the voting process itself, but there's a very real possibility that we'll have someone serving two terms as PM without ever winning an election - he wasn't even voted the Labour leader.
It's just crazy
I know it won't happen, but the best case scenario now, would be for Labour to do a deal with the LibDems to stay in power, but on the condition that Gordon Brown stands down immediately (to be replaced by a Milliband most likely), and Vince Cable becomes Chancellor.
Unfortunately, neither party would ever go for that.
@Lembi: Paul Rowen has been a fine MP. The Council and the Constituency MP are two entirely different things; they don't affect each other. The LDs have been shocking running the council, but that has nothing to do with Rowen.
@Sketchy: Brown was elected unopposed by the party that most people voted for last time. You don't vote for PM.
@Hagar: I don't see people rioting in England, I don't see people turfed out onto the streets, all I see is a massive lack of jobs, but a lack of jobs which is subsidised by the improved welfare state. It may get worse though, and I will concede the point if we do. And my point about looking back 20 years ago was just about comparing parties from now until then. As I said earlier, Brown has more in common with Thatcher than Foot - and I could easily say that Cameron has more in common with Blair than Heath.
We all know you *technically* only vote for the MP in your constituency, but let's face it - most people actually vote based on the party and its leader, because they see national issues as more important than their local issues. In this particular election, I don't doubt that there were a huge number of people who voted based on nothing else but a desire to get rid of Gordon Brown (and similarly, many will have voted purely to try and prevent a Tory government).
I'm sure a lot people didn't even know the name of the candidate they were voting for, let alone what they stand for.
Originally Posted by ..::hagar::.. I personally dislike career politicians (from any party any level), as I believe they are lacking sufficient life experience (and thus common sense) and I would like to see more engineers and people that have actually worked for a living in the commons in all parties.
Oh, totally. The culture of career politics is a large part of our current affliction with politics, imo.
@ Matt: a "double dip" (sorry to coin the media phrase ) could cause such effects but I think the British public have become far more scared of protesting (peacefully of course). Most people just accept the fact that they will be ignored and nothing will change no matter who gets in, and they just "assume the position" and brace themselves.
The figures show we are in a worse off state now, but as you say the state is keeping a cap on the social knock on effects, I know of a family who has recently had their house repossessed and now lives in a council house. At least they have somewhere to live but it is a grim time.
I think half of the problem is our culture. I have a lot of friends whom have everything but own nothing (new car even though their old car was fine, huge LCD TV, every console, every i-pod and i-phone that comes out and a large overdraft to boot). All of their items are on hire purchase, the whole ethos of our culture has become far too materialistic for my liking.
I have always been brought up to use something until it breaks or wears out, I will use my car until it fails a MOT test beyond viable repair.
I have to say, i have never voted on the basis of local candidates, despite the fact that that is indeed who i am voting for rather than the party leader. Everytime i have voted in General Elections (since i turned 18 - 199 it was for the Tories just to get Blair/Brown out of No. 10. As far as i can see, the person in No. 10 has a much greater impact on my life than the person who gets voted in my region.
Realistically, i care more about things like European policy, the Pound, foriegn policy, country-wide taxes, etc. than whether or not they're going to build a new toilet in Tenbury Wells or whether the Regal cinema gets a new lick of paint!
BTW, i think election reform is needed in this country - how can Lib Dems have only a sixth/seventh of the number of seats in this parliament when they won about 25% of the country's vote? I don't want them having power personally, but this surely doesn't make sense?!
I am sure the rest of the world thinks our electoral process looks stoopid!
I agree with Marko too . Cameron has said two things that I agree with today firstly that of making constituency sizes roughly equal (A good start for electoral reform). For example the Isle of Wight is Conservative and has 109,000 constituents, yet my local constituency which is Labour has only about 60,000 constituents, and most wards around here are Labour and have similar sizes. (Maybe an extreme example, but I do think things are fishy with the constituency sizes)
I also like the fact he has said no to the ID card scheme .
It's a very weird situation we're in at the moment. Both of the big main parties have been historically dead against any kind of electoral reform (whether it be PR, STV, AV etc). But neither of the big two can form the next government without the help of the Lib Dems, and they have been banging on about electoral reform since when they were formed. It looks like they're finally getting their chance to push it through.
If a referendum came out, I'm sure it would get the nod from the people. Nearly all Liberal voters are in favour of reform, all the smaller party supporters will be pushing for it, plus the Nationalists because it would improve their positions. That leaves the hardcore Labour and Conservative voters. Even a fair chunk of those would admit the bizarreness of the FPTP system. It'd pass with 75% of the public I think.
And Marko - even if you're voting for the party rather than your local candidate, the party you've voted for gets to choose their own leader. If the Labour party wanted to get rid of Gordon Brown, they have an absolute right too, within their own constitution. Similarly, if Cameron was the Prime Minister, and lost all confidence from his back-benchers, he could be replaced by the Conservative Party and the new guy would be Prime Minister, without facing a new election. But yeh, agreed with you that FPTP is stupid in multi-party politics; and would actually only yield hung parliaments anyway (now that the Lib Dems seem to make up at least 25% of the electorate). I'd rather those hung parliaments be proportional made up. In fact, PR would favour the Tories at this last election, despite the myth that they are well over-represented (that dubious honour falls on Labour).
@Hagar: The figures show, as a whole, we're in a worse-off state, but those at the bottom aren't AS bad (which must mean the 'middle' has taken quite a lot of the blow - instead of the top like it should be, and would be if I had my way!). I agree with you about our debt culture, and consumerism being massive problems; I don't know what has caused it. I'm very much with you, I will use something until it breaks, and when it has broke I will either fix it or use it for something else if possible, and then lastly I would recycle it (I hate waste).
Boothman you are right about the party leader not being in the the public's control - i think this is where most of the frustration with Brown in power comes from. No-one voted him in and it annoys his haters (including me), despite the fact "we" never voted Blair either, it was just Labour themselves who voted Blair internally!
I know that the parties get to choose their own leaders, and that's generally fine (although I do like the idea of primaries).
However, the situation with Brown was very unusual, and frankly very unethical (remember the Tory campaign "Vote Blair, Get Brown", and how it was refuted by Labour). I can't imagine either party would get away with pulling a similar stunt now(at least not any time soon).
btw: I wouldn't assume the LibDems will get their way with electoral reform. The Conservatives aren't actually under that much pressure to do a deal - they may well be happy just to form a minority government, and if that fails and we go to another election, then they would surely get an overall majority next time. Brown really isn't in any position to do a deal to remain in power, so Labour's only hope is to replace him - but he of course, he refuses to go quietly.
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). Plus how exactly has Brown sheltered us? We are pretty much the hardest hit country out of the G20 developed nations. I do kind of agree with you on a fundamental level though, about no party being particularly suited for the job.
. I have done a fair bit of work though, I used to repair Bluetooth headsets part time while doing my UG degree, and I was in R&D for some time before returning to academia.
Edited by Sketchy
it was for the Tories just to get Blair/Brown out of No. 10. As far as i can see, the person in No. 10 has a much greater impact on my life than the person who gets voted in my region.
. Cameron has said two things that I agree with today firstly that of making constituency sizes roughly equal (A good start for electoral reform). For example the Isle of Wight is Conservative and has 109,000 constituents, yet my local constituency which is Labour has only about 60,000 constituents, and most wards around here are Labour and have similar sizes. (Maybe an extreme example, but I do think things are fishy with the constituency sizes)
