Aww, I'm touched that you'd consider me for a nomination, OMC.
Unfortunately, a stealth-based Metroidvania doesn't sound like my forte, so I doubt I would be able to wholeheartedly contribute, and I don't want to offer anything that isn't my absolute best. ^^; I have an artist's mentality when it comes to game development, in the sense that I'm fueled by inspiration - something I really hope to control someday if I plan on getting a job in the industry.
Actually, on that note, it might do me some good to force myself into a project that doesn't fit my personal tastes as a gamer. I gotta think about this some more.
First of all, I vote Jon Lambert for project leader. Next, I didn't mean that having a unique game wasn't important, but I said that it wasn't as important as having a solid and polished game. I agree with the ability to climb ledges and hang onto walls, it would be cool, but somewhat difficult to implement. I think that you shouldn't tie down the player and force them to take one approach. Give players the option to use stealth to avoid a hard enemy or defeat them for extra rewards. I just threw out the Contra idea just to get the ideas going, so I'm not too attached to it.
Another idea which is more of a gameplay idea than overall design idea: What if you played as a four legged animal? It would give a different and unique feel to the game as a four-legged animal obviously handles different to a humanoid.
Jon, your idea seems like it's trying to be realistic. In that case I don't think you should add cutscenes between levels showing what the robbers are thinking as real cops wouldn't have that crutch and it is a lot of effort especially the VO. In addition, it should play out in real time, so you only have a limited amount of time to stop them. Maybe on the map that you find, you find five circled banks that the robbers are going to attack... and...
Well, actually the idea is good, but I don't think the supplied story really works with it. Maybe instead a Metroid-type story? The gang runs back to their hideout which you must explore to find all the artifacts that they stole from the museum. While you explore their hideout, you find upgrades like better guns, extra ammo, and other things. You also have to defeat the 4 gang bosses and turn them in. Feel free to add to that or discard the idea as you like.
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I like the bank robber and private investigator ideas. I also like the idea of having it like a Metroidvania game, where the player can find power-ups and stuff to augment their abilities and backtrack to explore more. Having stealth is also a neat idea, but it would be better if the player could choose if they wanted to be stealthy or go in guns blazing.
A nice part about having it be like a Metroidvania game is that some hard "blocks" can be put on player progression. Simply using jump height and player speed, access to further areas can be restricted. Have a platform too far away for the player to jump to, and they'll have to go find the related power-up to let them run faster or jump higher.
Also, having a variety of locations is key to a Metroidvania game. If the player is supposed to be chasing the gang to their hideout (or whatever), then that should take the player through the city (where the banks/museums/etc were robbed) and through the country side. Maybe through the city sewers, too. Having these different locales would mean that new elements can be introduced between levels and keep things fresh.
My only beef with the Metroidvania idea is why would the power-ups be there? If it's one of the things that the gang stole, then that would be evidence. If it's some surplus from the gang's exploits, like an extra rocket launcher that they don't need, then I would expect, as the player, that the gang would have rocket launchers to use against the player.
Originally Posted by Watermelon876 Jon, your idea seems like it's trying to be realistic. In that case I don't think you should add cutscenes between levels showing what the robbers are thinking as real cops wouldn't have that crutch and it is a lot of effort especially the VO. In addition, it should play out in real time, so you only have a limited amount of time to stop them. Maybe on the map that you find, you find five circled banks that the robbers are going to attack... and...
Well, actually the idea is good, but I don't think the supplied story really works with it. Maybe instead a Metroid-type story? The gang runs back to their hideout which you must explore to find all the artifacts that they stole from the museum. While you explore their hideout, you find upgrades like better guns, extra ammo, and other things. You also have to defeat the 4 gang bosses and turn them in. Feel free to add to that or discard the idea as you like.
Concerning the story, I didn't really think of it in terms of how realistic it was. It doesn't really have to star a police officer, it could be anyone, just so long as they're going after the robbers. Maybe the head of the town welcoming committee who wants to give them a hearty welcome in their faces with his foot. Anyways, concerning the cutscenes, they don't tell you more than the officer would really know, as it is presumed that he is watching from afar, as he is in the progress of chasing them and can see them from a distance. Imagine the game is cut into chapters, as Wario Land 2 was. This will help to convey the idea of the branching as well as the cutscenes.
The first level is the one right under the word Map. That level starts with Wario sleeping (as you could see in one of the videos I posted.) If you wake up and destroy the clock, you go down the map and the first chapter is then based on you following the pirates out of the castle. If you choose not to wake up, the pirates throw you out of the castle and take over, causing you to move to the right on the map and enter Chapter 2, where you must storm your castle and throw the pirates out. On that path, the game ends with 6 levels. Waking up leads you to the next crossroads, where you choose between fighting the giant snake and going right, leading to your chasing them out of the castle and to their pirate ship, or take the regular exit and follow them into the castle cellar. This is an example of a branching path that does not lead to a game ending. Each part of the path following a boss (denoted by a skull) is another chapter and is preceded by a cutscene. This video gives a good idea of what those cutscenes would be like and how they would show the robbers:
So with regards to our map, it might show the city, a volcano, an ocean, a forest, an abandoned city, and a mountain range, and any one of these could be the end point of the game. It might look like this:
It'd look better than that, and there would be levels that aren't in those places, like you might be going around the ocean and see it in the background on your way straight to the volcano or forest. Red dots are where branching levels would be, and yellow spots are where final levels would be. At branching spots, there could be bosses, where you fight one member of the robber gang that was left behind to stop you, and at a final level, you'd fight whatever members were left.
Each level would have a certain amount of coins and treasures, and at the end of the game you'd be given a rank based on how much you collected. Once you beat the game the first time you can go to any level you've been to before and look for more treasure or to find the other levels. Coins would always respawn, but treasures would be collected only once.
EDIT: To make the story more than just chasing the robbers across a bunch of random terrain, you could place some smaller cities and villages along the paths that they rob as they go along. In these levels, you'd have to get to the bank or whatever as quickly as you could for your chance to bust them. If you make it in time, you can fight one of the gang members, and defeating him or her would make the final boss that much easier.
At any end level, for example, the volcano, the robbers will have built a makeshift hideout inside the volcano chamber, and you'd sneak in trying to get to their stash. Before you got there, you'd find lower gang members to fight or avoid and smaller stashes, and once you got to the main room you'd fight all the remaining main gang members. Once you beat them, you could go into the main stash room, grab their loot, and escape before the volcano erupts and you head back to the city.
Can't say I'm crazy about the cops and robbers idea, but I do like the branching paths. Having the game almost being dynamic in length according how you play it is very intriguing. I'm sold on that concept, but the story disinterests me a bit. But when it comes down to it, I care more about the gameplay, so if everyone is sold on it I won't make a fuss.
What about playing as the thief? I think, if its going to have stealth things and all that stuff, it would be better used if you're playing as the robber, since you have to dodge the alarms and such.
Originally Posted by Smirnoff Can't say I'm crazy about the cops and robbers idea, but I do like the branching paths. Having the game almost being dynamic in length according how you play it is very intriguing. I'm sold on that concept, but the story disinterests me a bit. But when it comes down to it, I care more about the gameplay, so if everyone is sold on it I won't make a fuss.
I don't really care whether it is about cops or robbers or whatever, but I do like my idea of having the player chasing a group of some sort. I can't really explain traveling to so many weird places otherwise.
Originally Posted by A. Lino What about playing as the thief? I think, if its going to have stealth things and all that stuff, it would be better used if you're playing as the robber, since you have to dodge the alarms and such.
The stealth thing that everyone keeps talking about, and that I did mention, I'm not really so keen on. I just put it in there because other people seemed to like it, but stealth parts, while I enjoy them in games like Merry Gear Solid, aren't really what I'd like in this project. Of course, it isn't my project so I don't get to make those decisions. If we make it about the thief (if it does end up being about burglary) then wouldn't the gameplay have to be based around robbing places and such? That too is something I'm not really liking as the idea. I don't think that it is a bad idea, but I don't want to make it. It's still about what the people want though. Also, if it is about the burglary, it doesn't allow nearly as many different locales to go to. It'd be mostly cities and such.
Now that I understand the branching paths idea a bit more, I agree that that is a good one. I still don't really like the story. What about setting it in the future where you're a secret agent infiltrating the world's largest suppplier of illegal ammunition. This explains all the random weaponry lying around. This also can accomadate stealth gameplay. It makes a bit more sense for the protagonist to be unarmed than a policeman. Halfway through, the player uncovers a dastardly plot to destroy the universe or create a world of perpetual conflict or something crazy and unrealistic and suddenly you meet an insane psychic and the plot goes the way of Metal Gear. What if the company supplied the weapons to a guerilla force that destroyed your hometown and you're out for revenge? These are all just some ideas I'm tossing out for the story.
Or what about that you have to recover the 7 elemental crystals that keep your planet from crashing into the sun or something although that's more RPG fare. That would take you through multiple locations. Or the weapons company has multiple outposts? Well again those are just ideas.
Edited by Watermelon876
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You made a good point about the locations Jon. Im not really into this stealthy cop stuff also, it just doesnt seem to fit into a platformer, but i might be wrong.
As far as story goes, we can work on that later. For now, we have a number of gameplay elements suggested, so why don't we see which ones we like, which we don't, and which might need reworking?
- Branching paths: Some levels lead the game in different directions, where the story is told differently based on what path you take. A level might have two exits, one leading to the city sewers, and another leading to an abandoned part of town. Following one path could potentially lead to a final level, while another path might extend the game. Some paths might lead back to a "main path"
- Stealth: If the game has a story to support it, levels (however many is dependent upon the story) might require you to sneak around enemies or past other forms of security and surveillance
- Weapons: The player may need to find weapons to do something with
- Powerups: Some form of powerups could be in the game: if the game is linear and does not have traditional backtracking (you can't go to older areas) powerups would be temporary in levels and provide new gameplay mechanics, otherwise they would be used to allow access to new parts of older areas
- Progress: Should the game be linear or require backtracking? The game could either have you return to older areas with new abilities, or limit that ability to a level-select sort of mode after the game is completed the first time
- World: The game could be split into a number of levels or one large area split into smaller areas (imagine Mario-style level changes versus exploration on a planet in Metroid or of a single place like Showdown Town in Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts)
If I missed something, let me know and I'll add it to the list for reference. My opinions on these things, independent of story, is that I'd like the game to have branching paths so that a number of possible final levels can be made, and also to give variation both to every playthrough and to the number of level themes possible. Stealth is an idea I'm not on board with as much, because I don't want to make a game based on stealth, and anything less than that might make the stealth parts get gimped or seem out of place. Weapons are okay so long as the game doesn't become a "get bigger and better weapons and just blow things up", where you only need to get a strong enough weapon to kill enemies instantly and the game becomes easy. For powerups, you could have those to increase your range of mobility, allowing you to get to new places, but it depends on how progress in the game is handled. With progress, I'd like it to be like Wario Land 2 where you go through one story first and then once you've beaten a final level, you can use the map to go to any old level and follow different paths. The world would be split into different areas, which would be somewhat like worlds, and each area would have a number of levels with the same theme. However, multiple areas could have similar themes, for example, there could be a forest and a valley, or a city and then the city sewers or a city and an abandoned city.
Usually I can think of a story, but right now I can't come up with any good ones based on all that, so someone else can think of one.
I was thinking something along the lines of a Castlevania map where you are free to roam anywhere, and depending where you go, you can fight through different parts of the game, and once you're finished with the final boss you can backtrack to the beginning and either play through the levels you missed as a fully equipped character (if the game has items and RPG elements to support that) or remove all your items and play through like a fresh new game.
And don't worry about not thinking up story ideas, we can't really do that because we haven't even settled on enough of the game yet. All we know for certain so far is that the game will be a platformer.
I think we should all do a point by point evaluation to make things easy and clear for everyone interested. I'll follow Jon's example.
Branching paths: Absolutely yes.
Stealth: No, I don't like it. For stealth to work, you really have to have it be a "stealth" game. Not digging it
Weapons: You find them ala castlevania/ghouls n ghosts. If you keep the weapon until the end of the level, you get to keep it. Only one weapon at a time.
Powerups: I agree with Jon with the linear part. Either that, or you get to keep all the powerups you find and use them in your next playthrough.
Progress: No backtracking. You can replay levels with new abilities after completing the game.
World: Levels you can see from a world map. Think castlevania 3 but with the structure of branching paths Jon suggested.
Branching paths: yes
Stealth: No.
Weapons: The way Smirnoff said. The game should be beatable without them, just like you can beat Mario without flowers.
Powerups: You should keep them until you die or forever, could be used to access other areas on levels already finished, and get secret stuff.
Progress: You could replay levels you already beat, unlocking new levels and paths.
World: No idea, i liked the Super Mario World map that would change when you found some secret stuff.
Leader: Jon.
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